Fusion - breakthrough or another false dawn

[V41LEY]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b04mgtdq

The ‘In Our Time’ episode with Melvyn Bragg on this was a good intro into this subject.

[Wayoftheflower]

Interesting dive into some of the remaining challenges for commercial fusion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JurplDfPi3U

[putonghua73]

Wayoftheflower said:

Interesting dive into some of the remaining challenges for commercial fusion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JurplDfPi3U

Oddly enough, the above video appeared in my YT recommended videos by the YT algorithm - the latter is also showing me videos on how to improve one's ejaculate matter (presented by a fit Middle-Eastern doctor, but I digress) - as well as Sabine Hossenfelder's opinion on Fusion. TL;DR view is that we are as far away as ever from net gain i.e. total energy output produced by the factory exceeding total energy input into the factory.

[prand]

CraigyMc said:

Apparently we're going from 20 year indefinite estimates to 3 year ones: https://step.ukaea.uk/

Edit: no. 2040 build target. It's 2024 for the design

Not sure if this is the main Fusion thread - but it seems like we (UK) are pushing ahead with actually building a large scale commercial reactor. Ready in 2040 says here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-5891...

Amazing prediction, and a very exciting prospect. But have we really overcome the limitations and obstacles to create fusion power on this scale?

Edited by prand on Thursday 14th October 16:53

[Flooble]

prand said:

CraigyMc said:

Apparently we're going from 20 year indefinite estimates to 3 year ones: https://step.ukaea.uk/

Edit: no. 2040 build target. It's 2024 for the design

Not sure if this is the main Fusion thread - but it seems like we (UK) are pushing ahead with actually building a large scale commercial reactor. Ready in 2040 says here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-5891...

Amazing prediction, and a very exciting prediction. But have we really overcome the limitations and obstacles to create fusion power on this scale?

I think you know the answer to that.

If it was a case of "doable but dangerous" I'd expect China to have done it by now.

So all we are left with is:

"Doable but too expensive": UK going it alone is unlikely to fix that
"Still no idea how to do it": Ditto

It's a real shame that it wasn't necessary to master fusion power prior to achieving fusion bombs - and that there is no military use for fusion power.

[prand]

Flooble said:

I think you know the answer to that.

If it was a case of "doable but dangerous" I'd expect China to have done it by now.

So all we are left with is:

"Doable but too expensive": UK going it alone is unlikely to fix that
"Still no idea how to do it": Ditto

It's a real shame that it wasn't necessary to master fusion power prior to achieving fusion bombs - and that there is no military use for fusion power.

OK, so likely we're not going to see anything, just some planning applications going in and being publicised, I guess to give some hope to the energy strapped UK, and make us look good for COP 26.

[bucksmanuk]

The problem with the fusion reactor at Culham (where fusion research predominantly started) is that it can only run for about 20 seconds. Reasons are as such

They can only draw 500 MW off the grid to get it started. The rest is supplied by 2 775 tonne flywheels which are spun up to 200 rpm-ish and then power is taken off them for the same 20 seconds. These flywheels add another 500 MW to the “pot” to allow JET to get going at 1 GW.

Nearly all the pulses happen in the evening and have to be carefully timed so they don’t happen at the same time everyone goes to the kitchen when the programs finish, and switch kettles on, or flush the toilet and all the pumps for the water authorities have to spring into action.

This didn’t create too much of a problem when Didcot was open, as it was just down the road. Now it’s shut, there has to be far more effort into firing the pulses, as they can only do it with a lot more communication with the grid.

Now the UK has a serious issue with spare generating capacity, it compromises the ability of the grid to supply “surplus” power to do the research.
JET will be running until the end of 2023, probably a bit more than that – early/mid 2024, then the fun starts with decommissioning it, hence the formation of the RACE group. https://race.ukaea.uk/

There is also work ongoing with MAST - https://ccfe.ukaea.uk/research/mast-upgrade/

There is small-scale fusion happening on the other side of Abingdon at Tokomak Energy, I know someone who works there. https://www.tokamakenergy.co.uk/

I’d advise any of you in the area to go along and have a look at how your hard earned tax payer’s cash is spent. Culham used to do 2 evenings a year for the public which were always fully booked, and they would show people round and let them see stuff. Sadly, due to COVID, this has been knocked on the head. I hope it starts up again.

I’ll try and keep people informed as I start working there on Monday in a worryingly responsible position….

[Kawasicki]

solar panels on the roof?

[hidetheelephants]

Flooble said:

I think you know the answer to that.

If it was a case of "doable but dangerous" I'd expect China to have done it by now.

So all we are left with is:

"Doable but too expensive": UK going it alone is unlikely to fix that
"Still no idea how to do it": Ditto

It's a real shame that it wasn't necessary to master fusion power prior to achieving fusion bombs - and that there is no military use for fusion power.

Rather depends on the scalability; if a fusion reactor can be dustbin/washing machine size then the military will probably want to fit them in ships, in containers to power camps, maybe even planes.

[The Wookie]

hidetheelephants said:

Rather depends on the scalability; if a fusion reactor can be dustbin/washing machine size then the military will probably want to fit them in ships, in containers to power camps, maybe even planes.

Assuming, <dons tinfoil hat> they haven’t done it already and just haven’t made it public

[Dr Jekyll]

hidetheelephants said:

Rather depends on the scalability; if a fusion reactor can be dustbin/washing machine size then the military will probably want to fit them in ships, in containers to power camps, maybe even planes.

I want a car with it's own fusion reactor, just to upset the greens.

[Diderot]

Dr Jekyll said:

I want a car with it's own fusion reactor, just to upset the greens.

You’ll be wanting a De Lorean and a Mr Fusion then

[glazbagun]

Dr Jekyll said:

hidetheelephants said:

Rather depends on the scalability; if a fusion reactor can be dustbin/washing machine size then the military will probably want to fit them in ships, in containers to power camps, maybe even planes.

I want a car with it's own fusion reactor, just to upset the greens.

Why would that upset greens? Fusion is the silver bullet of energy needs.

[Agarange]

We can already do fusion but it's a bit uncontrolled - boom.

Fusion technology is worth spending some money on as it advances the field. Eventually a group somewhere will crack it but it may take another 50 years or 10.

[Dr Jekyll]

glazbagun said:

Dr Jekyll said:

hidetheelephants said:

Rather depends on the scalability; if a fusion reactor can be dustbin/washing machine size then the military will probably want to fit them in ships, in containers to power camps, maybe even planes.

I want a car with it's own fusion reactor, just to upset the greens.

Why would that upset greens? Fusion is the silver bullet of energy needs.

Because they disapprove of cars and of energy production.

[anonymous-user]

Dr Jekyll said:

Because they disapprove of cars and of energy production.

No they don't, they disapprove of fossil fuels and stuff that creates carbon dioxide. I don't think anyone would have an issue with cars if they were clean

[Dr Jekyll]

hucumber said:

Dr Jekyll said:

Because they disapprove of cars and of energy production.

No they don't, they disapprove of fossil fuels and stuff that creates carbon dioxide. I don't think anyone would have an issue with cars if they were clean

Rubbish, they were against cars long before global warming was a concern. They are also just as much against fission as they were then even though it's the obvious way of reducing CO2 emissions while still producing energy.

In the words green guru of Paul Ehrlich 'Giving society cheap, abundant energy would be the equivalent of giving an idiot child a machine gun.'.

[Wayoftheflower]

hucumber said:

Dr Jekyll said:

Because they disapprove of cars and of energy production.

No they don't, they disapprove of fossil fuels and stuff that creates carbon dioxide. I don't think anyone would have an issue with cars if they were clean

Exactly this, the sheer insanity of the strawmen some people come up with to pollute otherwise interesting threads on PH is breathtaking.

[Mr Whippy]

hucumber said:

Dr Jekyll said:

Because they disapprove of cars and of energy production.

No they don't, they disapprove of fossil fuels and stuff that creates carbon dioxide. I don't think anyone would have an issue with cars if they were clean

Cars will never be clean, just as humans themselves aren’t clean.

Micro rubber particulates off the tyres.

Killing bugs as you drive through the air.

Noise!

Screen-wash water pollution.

It’s a never ending battle against complainer personality types.

[Wayoftheflower]

Mr Whippy said:

hucumber said:

Dr Jekyll said:

Because they disapprove of cars and of energy production.

No they don't, they disapprove of fossil fuels and stuff that creates carbon dioxide. I don't think anyone would have an issue with cars if they were clean

Cars will never be clean, just as humans themselves aren’t clean.

Micro rubber particulates off the tyres.

Killing bugs as you drive through the air.

Noise!

Screen-wash water pollution.

It’s a never ending battle against complainer personality types.

Why do people feel the need to derail threads with dribble?

I'm sure there's plenty of threads on Nimbyism, Eco-terrorist conspiracy, UFO, mind control and alike, fill your boots and leave the interesting science alone.