Timing marks way off after fitting electronic ignition

[Mkol]

Hi Guys, im starting a new thread on this as the problem has evolved a bit for me.

After fitting an Accuspark electronic ignition kit to my Pinto distributor i had problems starting and then im finding that when i eventually got the engine to run i need to advance the timing waaay off the marks on the pulley.

When i fitted the Electronic module i decided it would be easier with the dizzy on the bench so i removed it, could i have messed something up when i fitted it?
my (limited) understanding was that the orientation of the dizzy was not so relevant as long as i had piston 1 at TDC on compression, rotor at point 1 and then the leads in the corresponding firing order the engine should be timed more or less ok, so how have i ended up with it needing to be so far advanced according to the marks on the pulley just to get it to idle...??

[TwinKam]

Because the 'trigger' point of your new pick-up is different to the point at which your old points opened. It's no biggie (as long as the rotor can still flash-over to the relevant contact), all that matters is that your ignition timing is now correct, and that the vacuum unit doesn't foul the block/ alternator/ whatever.
I'd make a mark dizzy-to-block for future reference.

[Mkol]

TwinKam said:

Because the 'trigger' point of your new pick-up is different to the point at which your old points opened. It's no biggie (as long as the rotor can still flash-over to the relevant contact), all that matters is that your ignition timing is now correct, and that the vacuum unit doesn't foul the block/ alternator/ whatever.
I'd make a mark dizzy-to-block for future reference.

Thanks TwinKam, what concerns me now though is without the pulley marks as a reference how do i set the timing with a strobe to get it to the correct advance, ie 10deg BTDC etc, as all i have done so far is use my ears, does that make sense?

[Polly Grigora]

I have a hunch that you're advancing it so much that the cylinder in the firing order before 1 is firing rather than 1.....Have you looked?

Over at your earlier topic you comment..... just to check i swapped everything back to points and she jumped into life immediately and timing was fine etc...

Going by your above findings, refit the points and have it running timed correctly, then look closely at the positions of everything and note them, you need to be doing this when a cam lobe is in position to open the points and fire cylinder 1 (check that with a bulb, static timing check)

With the Accuspark kit fitted, look closely at the positions of everything and you may well see a difference, mark the top of the trigger ring at the 4 places that line up with the distributor cam lobes if you're having difficulty seeing the cam lobe to pick-up coil position

The problem is surely being caused by an incorrectly positioned pick-up coil or there's something not correct with the trigger ring

Edited by Polly Grigora on Tuesday 28th March 17:13

[steveo3002]

Mkol said:

Thanks TwinKam, what concerns me now though is without the pulley marks as a reference how do i set the timing with a strobe to get it to the correct advance, ie 10deg BTDC etc, as all i have done so far is use my ears, does that make sense?

you would use a advance timing light and the 0tdc marks...dial in 10 or suchlike and it will flash for the tdc mark

having said that do go over it again sounds like something is wrong

[Polly Grigora]

Is is possible to fit the pick-up coil to the wrong side of its base plate as that will throw the timing well out if the pick-up doesn't fit to the centre of the plate?

Is there room when turning the distributor to retard the ignition rather than advance it as you may well find that the timing is then correct as it will be firing on 1 rather than the cylinder in the firing order before 1?

Mkol said:

Thanks TwinKam, what concerns me now though is without the pulley marks as a reference how do i set the timing with a strobe to get it to the correct advance, ie 10deg BTDC etc, as all i have done so far is use my ears, does that make sense?

You would need to change all the HT leads positions by 90 degrees but there's something wrong, you shouldn't need to change the positions of the HT leads

Edited by Polly Grigora on Tuesday 28th March 17:15

[Mkol]

Polly Grigora said:

I have a hunch that you're advancing it so much that the cylinder in the firing order before 1 is firing rather than 1.....Have you looked?

Over at your earlier topic you comment..... just to check i swapped everything back to points and she jumped into life immediately and timing was fine etc...

Going by your above findings, refit the points and have it running timed correctly, then look closely at the positions of everything and note them, you need to be doing this when a cam lobe is in position to open the points and fire cylinder 1 (check that with a bulb, static timing check)

With the Accuspark kit fitted, look closely at the positions of everything and you may well see a difference, mark the top of the trigger ring at the 4 places that line up with the distributor cam lobes if you're having difficulty seeing the cam lobe to pick-up coil position

The problem is surely being caused by an incorrectly positioned pick-up coil or there's something not correct with the trigger ring

Edited by Polly Grigora on Tuesday 28th March 17:13

Thanks so much for the help and excellent replies on this , I think your right I must have got so far out it’s triggering the wrong plug, some garage time tomorrow hopefully will check through everything again… every days a school day!

[GreenV8S]

Does your Pinto distributor still have any vac or mechanical advance enabled? With electronic ignition you'd usually want to lock down the dizzy base plate and set the ignition phase in the ECU to fire around the angle that the rotor arm and poles are aligned. Also note that the dizzy drive will typically rotate as the dizzy is removed and installed due to the helical drive gearing, and this means the position of the rotor arm when you start installing it is not where it ends up.

[Mkol]

The vaccum advance is blocked as im using bike carbs.

ive gone in today and double checked everyhting, TDC on compression, turned the dizzy so the rotor is at position one, checked firing order, had the rocker cover off to check cam lobes...all looks fine, so i still cant figure why as soon as the elec ignition module is in its requiring massive advance to start let alone run!

It really does seem to be firing in the right order rather than picking up on the wrong plug, if i hand turn the engine back to TDC and whip the dizzy cover off, the rotor is pointing right at #1.

and then as soon as i pop the points back in, start it up and then time it for best idle, its right back to where it needs to be, around 10deg BTDC (according to the pully marks)....very confusing.

[Polly Grigora]

Mkol said:

It really does seem to be firing in the right order rather than picking up on the wrong plug, if i hand turn the engine back to TDC and whip the dizzy cover off, the rotor is pointing right at #1.

Which would be good if plug 1 was sparking when it should be but you've proven it isn't

What you're seeing with the timing light is that plug 1 isn't sparking when it should be, when you advance the timing and manage to get it to run there is a very good chance that the rotor arm is pointing closer to the distributor cap lobe for the HT lead of the cylinder in the firing order before 1

As you very likely know, the rotor arm doesn't need to be pointing directly at a lobe, the HT voltage will jump a gap

[GreenV8S]

How is the electronic ignition module getting its crank phase sensing? In my experience these usually need to be triggered before the highest amount of advance they support which is way ahead of where you would normally be taking a trigger from with conventional points. If you're triggering it too late then you may be having to add the extra advance to get it within the firing window for the 'previous' cylinder iyswim.

[Mkol]

its the type of module that just pops in the dizzy to replace the points so no crank sensing to speak of....old school no ECU etc

[GreenV8S]

You're saying this just an electronic amplifier rather than mappable ignition controlled by an ECU?

[Mkol]

GreenV8S said:

You're saying this just an electronic amplifier rather than mappable ignition controlled by an ECU?

essentially a module that fits into the dizzy body and replaces points, uses the hall effect between a pickup on the baseplate and a sensor that attaches to the rotor spindle to time the spark.
https://www.minispares-online.co.uk/powerspark-45d...
yes no ECU, they replace points ignition systems on classic cars

[Belle427]

I know the wiring is very basic on these but are you happy it's correct?
It's not difficult to fry these modules.

[Mkol]

Belle427 said:

I know the wiring is very basic on these but are you happy it's correct?
It's not difficult to fry these modules.

yes its wired up correctly and as you say it is really very simple, just to clarify i have had it running but whats making me scratch my head is why the timing is so far out..

[jeremyc]

Is it possible to fit the baseplate in more than one orientation (or rotate it in relation to the distributor shaft)?

[andybracing]

I may be miss remembering, as its probably 40 years since i played with a pinto, but i remember the distrubuter drive is a helicol gear, so as you put it in the shaft will turn a few degrees after it engages as the helicol gears mesh, maybe try taking the distributor out and turning the shaft back one tooth if that makes scense?

[GreenV8S]

Mkol said:

essentially a module that fits into the dizzy body and replaces points, uses the hall effect between a pickup on the baseplate and a sensor that attaches to the rotor spindle to time the spark.
https://www.minispares-online.co.uk/powerspark-45d...
yes no ECU, they replace points ignition systems on classic cars

Ah, got it.

With this type of system the base plate position determines the phase of the sensor relative to the cam, and the spindle and trigger wheel determine the phase of the trigger wheel relative to the cam. Both together determine the phase of the spark relative to the cam. Unless you know it's designed to be a direct slot-in replacement for that exact distributorI wouldn't assume it is - it doesn't surprise me that the timing has to be set from scratch and requires a distributor position sigficantly different to the original.

If you have removed the baseplate then it's worth a sanity check to confirm the pull rod from the vac advance is still engaged correctly. If this is dislodged then the base plate may be free to float, giving you random timing on top of anything else that may be going on.

[Mkol]

GreenV8S said:

Ah, got it.

With this type of system the base plate position determines the phase of the sensor relative to the cam, and the spindle and trigger wheel determine the phase of the trigger wheel relative to the cam. Both together determine the phase of the spark relative to the cam. Unless you know it's designed to be a direct slot-in replacement for that exact distributorI wouldn't assume it is - it doesn't surprise me that the timing has to be set from scratch and requires a distributor position sigficantly different to the original.

If you have removed the baseplate then it's worth a sanity check to confirm the pull rod from the vac advance is still engaged correctly. If this is dislodged then the base plate may be free to float, giving you random timing on top of anything else that may be going on.

the module is 'supposed' to be a direct drop into the dizzy and is 'supposed' to be for a Bosch, they make slightly differing designs for the motorcraft etc...but what your saying does sound like the problem, the documentation does say that timing will need to be set again and wont be identical to the points but its surpring how much its off...so much so it wouldnt even start. what is slightly annoying is that if i stick with the electronic module i dotn have any way of referncing the advance as the timign marks are useless, how do i now judge how many degrees it is etc...begginign to think i'll just stick to good old points and be happy!