Take that Trucker
Discussion
OpulentBob said:
NorfolkInClue1 said:
...poor car driving only gets in your way for a few seconds, idiots in HGV's tend to last a bit longer so are understandably much more annoying, some of us are professional.................
No axe to grind here but out of the whole thread, that's probably the sentence that's made the most sense to me. Idiots on all sides, but car driving idiots are quicker to escape. Considering HGV's run at around 20% of the A-road traffic around here, even if 1% of car drivers AND/OR truck drivers are planks, then that's going to have a fair impact.
Been an interesting read, between the spats.
kwittery are far, far fewer from HGV drivers in my experience. I would also add that a far, far higher percentage of car-only drivers are guilty of this.XDA said:
But it's not particularly well paid, is it?
I appreciate some do earn a very good wage.
In some areas 9ph could be a very good wage and above the areas average.Think areas that are struggling at the moment.Its also unlikely 9ph is across the board covering all hours.I would gamble that 9ph moves onto an overtime rate over 8 or 10 hours work.Given that some drivers will be working maximum hours every week and happy to do so that 9ph plus overtime rate can be turned into maybe over £600-£700 pwI appreciate some do earn a very good wage.
Depends what firms are in the area,the recession excuse gets peddled around all sectors reducing wages.I know of people on upwards of 38k a year basic being expected to take 9k pay cuts with the down turn top of the excuse list, whilst the company still profits and blows money on ill thought out projects.
Panda76 said:
I doubt truckers reacted with fury,that stretch really is short lol (which is likely to be in direct relation to the times that are out there somewhere.)
I doubt it too. What difference does it make to them? If everyone has to trundle at 40 mph while the cars go past at 55, so be it.Trouble is, some want to spread that all over the nation. Lane 1 40mph, L2 50 and l3 60ish. Which is pretty much what it's doing now, but it could get much worse than that and will make entering and leaving m'was a right barrel of laughs, as indeed Blue already alludes to.
Panda76 said:
The news report doesnt really count blue.
There was at one point actual times on this bloody internet somewhere,which now appear hard to find.
I doubt truckers reacted with fury,that stretch really is short lol (which is likely to be in direct relation to the times that are out there somewhere.)
Also since the journey trial was put in place 7.5t vehicles are running at 56mph these days,quite a lot of them struggle with this on inclines.The journey time trial was only put in on the A42 because of the incline and trucks losing speed on it.7,5t vehicles being allowed in lane 2 but still struggling up the incline kind of defeats the object ......
XDA you cant look at a small sector of an industries wage and decide thats what the majority are being paid.
I dont even go down the road anymore and get paid quite a bit more than £9 ph,albeit my job is salaried.
The company I work for is not one of the top payers in the midlands area either,a friend of mine works for a well known crisps firm and is on a bit more than my workplace.
I wouldnt do what I'm doing for £9 ph,its certainly not an industry standard,not the lowest out there of the piss takers paying peanuts,but low enough not to get out of bed for it.
You are right in that empirical data is hard to find. But the Road haulage Association were pretty pissed off, I found another report somewhere where they are quoted, but I can't find it now.There was at one point actual times on this bloody internet somewhere,which now appear hard to find.
I doubt truckers reacted with fury,that stretch really is short lol (which is likely to be in direct relation to the times that are out there somewhere.)
Also since the journey trial was put in place 7.5t vehicles are running at 56mph these days,quite a lot of them struggle with this on inclines.The journey time trial was only put in on the A42 because of the incline and trucks losing speed on it.7,5t vehicles being allowed in lane 2 but still struggling up the incline kind of defeats the object ......
XDA you cant look at a small sector of an industries wage and decide thats what the majority are being paid.
I dont even go down the road anymore and get paid quite a bit more than £9 ph,albeit my job is salaried.
The company I work for is not one of the top payers in the midlands area either,a friend of mine works for a well known crisps firm and is on a bit more than my workplace.
I wouldnt do what I'm doing for £9 ph,its certainly not an industry standard,not the lowest out there of the piss takers paying peanuts,but low enough not to get out of bed for it.
Edited by Panda76 on Wednesday 24th April 13:46
Edited by Panda76 on Wednesday 24th April 13:48
If not being able to pass makes so little difference to trucks, why are they so vehemently defending the position on here?
As for 3 lane motorways, the logic seems simple to me
On a busy M6 this week
Lane 1 circa 55mph
Lane 2 circa 65 mph
Lane 3 circa 75 mph
Truck limited to 56 mph pulls into lane 2 to overtake another truck doing 55mph
This means that lane 2 slows by 9 mph and as a result of insufficient space between cars and the odd muppet who stand on his brakes you get a concertina/ripple effect and cars further back have to slow harder. Some cars doing 65 move into lane 3 and continue to do 65, thus slowing lane 3, causing ripple effect etc. This slows all of the traffic.
Repeat ad nauseum for 2 hours and you can see why trucks overtaking can cause an issue.
The ripple effect is well documented and is the main cause of shunts occurring in lane 3, usually the cause of lane 3 slowing is cars from lane 2 moving into lane 3, these cars are often moving out to pass trucks or other slow moving vehicles.
I observe this happening day in day out, and when mways are busy the effect is noticeable. It also addresses Heebs point about there being no problem at night, therefore the problem must be the cars (stupid logic anyway). The problem is what the cars have to do because of the trucks/slow vehicles in lane 2.
Incidentally, on many German mways they use the gantry displays and restrict trucks to lane 1 when its busy. Stats demonstrate that per car mile they have fewer shunts. Coincidence or correlation?
Not being able to pass on small sections will hardly make a time difference.Not being able to pass at all would seriously hinder daily progress.Most big companies have trucks running 24/7 far more profitiable than a truck only running for half the day/night.The truck needs to able to get back to base for this to happen.
You dont see problems in Germany because the problem isnt happening to you.
There is problems over there,dawdlers locking heavy traffic into lane at a much slower pace with no means to legally get past.
You dont see problems in Germany because the problem isnt happening to you.
There is problems over there,dawdlers locking heavy traffic into lane at a much slower pace with no means to legally get past.
blueg33 said:
Incidentally, on many German mways they use the gantry displays and restrict trucks to lane 1 when its busy. Stats demonstrate that per car mile they have fewer shunts. Coincidence or correlation?
Well, according to today's news it doesn't help their roads flow any better. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2313885/Br...I think people need to be very careful about citing Europe as an example. We all know, I'm sure every single one of us knows, that you can travel around Europe quite freely but as soon as you cross the channel you return to chaos.
I firmly believe, and could post at length if need be, that the average UK car driver is staggeringly incompetent when compared to European counterparts. I realise the accident stats don't quite back that up, but it's what I think from observations and experiences going back 30 years.
In the 1980s and now, there are too many slow cars on m'ways in the UK. I used to truck around Europe in the 1980s and there was a marked difference in the number of cars I would overtake in an hgv then, and I still found 4 years ago that I was overtaking too many cars. Back in the 80's I could go a day in Germany and not overtake a car, over here I couldn't go a half-hour, and that is the truth.
The reason that L1 travels at 50-55mph now Blue, is because the trucks can overtake. If things go your way that will become a rarity.
blueg33 said:
You are right in that empirical data is hard to find. But the Road haulage Association were pretty pissed off, I found another report somewhere where they are quoted, but I can't find it now.
If not being able to pass makes so little difference to trucks, why are they so vehemently defending the position on here?
As for 3 lane motorways, the logic seems simple to me
On a busy M6 this week
Lane 1 circa 55mph
Lane 2 circa 65 mph
Lane 3 circa 75 mph
Truck limited to 56 mph pulls into lane 2 to overtake another truck doing 55mph
This means that lane 2 slows by 9 mph and as a result of insufficient space between cars and the odd muppet who stand on his brakes you get a concertina/ripple effect and cars further back have to slow harder. Some cars doing 65 move into lane 3 and continue to do 65, thus slowing lane 3, causing ripple effect etc. This slows all of the traffic.
Repeat ad nauseum for 2 hours and you can see why trucks overtaking can cause an issue.
You've contradicted yourself there, you state its the trucks that cause the issue yet you are blaming the cars doing 65 in lane 3 as well as those not leaving sufficient gap leading to those behind braking. If not being able to pass makes so little difference to trucks, why are they so vehemently defending the position on here?
As for 3 lane motorways, the logic seems simple to me
On a busy M6 this week
Lane 1 circa 55mph
Lane 2 circa 65 mph
Lane 3 circa 75 mph
Truck limited to 56 mph pulls into lane 2 to overtake another truck doing 55mph
This means that lane 2 slows by 9 mph and as a result of insufficient space between cars and the odd muppet who stand on his brakes you get a concertina/ripple effect and cars further back have to slow harder. Some cars doing 65 move into lane 3 and continue to do 65, thus slowing lane 3, causing ripple effect etc. This slows all of the traffic.
Repeat ad nauseum for 2 hours and you can see why trucks overtaking can cause an issue.
3 or 4 lane motorways can run perfectly fine when trucks are overtaking one another if you also have those numpties on the road as you said then the trucks passing each other aren't the cause
Nickyboy said:
You've contradicted yourself there, you state its the trucks that cause the issue yet you are blaming the cars doing 65 in lane 3 as well as those not leaving sufficient gap leading to those behind braking.
3 or 4 lane motorways can run perfectly fine when trucks are overtaking one another if you also have those numpties on the road as you said then the trucks passing each other aren't the cause
The cars doing 65mph in lane 3 have been pushed there by the trucks elephant racing, that is the prime cause of the car s moving out.3 or 4 lane motorways can run perfectly fine when trucks are overtaking one another if you also have those numpties on the road as you said then the trucks passing each other aren't the cause
Lane changing is a fundamental cause of motorway jams
Here is some light reading on the topic
[urlRoad congestion and ripple effect study|http://www.cs.bath.ac.uk/~mdv/courses/CM30082/projects.bho/2008-9/shipp-dj-dissertation-2008-9.pdf[/url]
Vehicles moving more slowly than the bulk of lane 2 traffic will when then pull out cause the ripple effect that causes jams.
Its all in the paper above if you read it properly. I doubt you will though because you didn't even read my post properly
As for this topic, I am giving up because I really can't be arsed any more to try and explain to people who are so blinkered (as far as I can tell I am the only person on this thread whom has bothered to try and find any empirical evidence, the little there is supports my case) but hey lets ignore the facts- trucks must always be right.
blueg33 said:
The cars doing 65mph in lane 3 have been pushed there by the trucks elephant racing, that is the prime cause of the car s moving out.
Lane changing is a fundamental cause of motorway jams
Here is some light reading on the topic
[urlRoad congestion and ripple effect study|http://www.cs.bath.ac.uk/~mdv/courses/CM30082/projects.bho/2008-9/shipp-dj-dissertation-2008-9.pdf[/url]
Vehicles moving more slowly than the bulk of lane 2 traffic will when then pull out cause the ripple effect that causes jams.
Its all in the paper above if you read it properly. I doubt you will though because you didn't even read my post properly
As for this topic, I am giving up because I really can't be arsed any more to try and explain to people who are so blinkered (as far as I can tell I am the only person on this thread whom has bothered to try and find any empirical evidence, the little there is supports my case) but hey lets ignore the facts- trucks must always be right.
You are wrong in so many points, Blue. Firstly, I am not arguing as a trucker (it doesn't make much difference to them) but as a car driver who can see the 'speed-limiter situation' repeating itself. Just as people used the same words that you emboldened to support the case for speed limiters on trucks as a means of reducing congestion which actually had the opposite effect for car traffic, so the same arguments are being used to suggest lorries should not overtake and I think this too will have the opposite effect for car traffic.Lane changing is a fundamental cause of motorway jams
Here is some light reading on the topic
[urlRoad congestion and ripple effect study|http://www.cs.bath.ac.uk/~mdv/courses/CM30082/projects.bho/2008-9/shipp-dj-dissertation-2008-9.pdf[/url]
Vehicles moving more slowly than the bulk of lane 2 traffic will when then pull out cause the ripple effect that causes jams.
Its all in the paper above if you read it properly. I doubt you will though because you didn't even read my post properly
As for this topic, I am giving up because I really can't be arsed any more to try and explain to people who are so blinkered (as far as I can tell I am the only person on this thread whom has bothered to try and find any empirical evidence, the little there is supports my case) but hey lets ignore the facts- trucks must always be right.
It doesn't really affect lorry drivers, because whatever law is passed it will be the same for everyone and any restrictions placed means more work for them. It will affect those however who invest in haulage, although so long as shop prices go up to reflect increased haulage costs then that may not matter.
I'm speaking as a keen car driver and enthusiast, who unlike almost everyone on forums such as this has extensive experience (for my sins) of driving trucks and have seen how other drivers behave in their interaction with such vehicles; you have no experience of this, blue.
You are wrong in other areas, you have used the words 'push' and 'forced'. Nobody is pushing or forcing anybody anywhere. Nobody forces a car into L3 for him to drive in that lane more slowly than the prevailing traffic, that is a choice that driver makes for himself, and sadly in the UK there are far too many drivers who will do so, unlike (in my experience) on the continent.
Furthermore, I'm not sure that document above supports your argument. I've had a skim-read of it up to page 17 and have had to stop because i think it's supporting my view and not yours. Your problem I think is that you have this utopian idea that with the trucks in L1 lanes 2 and 3 will zip past at 70 mph or more. Mate, it won't happen. You must have seen how in slow moving traffic, often caused by junctions, L3 is often the first to stop. M40 south J9 (A34), I used to travel in the opposite direction in the mornings quite frequently, and just about every time L3 heading south was the first lane to actually come to a halt.
There is only one type of vehicle out there that has any material affect on traffic flow and that is the car. There has been no adverse change in the numbers of any vehicle since 1951 other than the car. There is no other type of vehicle that causes us to judge our journey times by any real degree, other than the car. It is car traffic that makes us decide how long a journey will take, what time we set off, considering factors such as time of day, day of week and are the schools closed or not. Imo there is no real issue out there worth talking about other than the sheer numbers of cars on the road.
It is cars that have caused the extensive carriage-widening we have seen in recent years, the building of m'ways (2 side-by-side in the case of M42 and M6Toll near my location) it is cars that has seen the need of hard-shoulder running and managed traffic flows and almost every main roundabout in the country to be widened and become festooned with traffic lights, and all this work caused tremendous congestion in itself.
And as you've demonstrated blue, every car driver blames somebody else and also thinks that their journey is vital and no, they are not going to embrace new technology and operate more quickly and efficiently, businesses such as yours are going to continue to clog roads up and have staff sat in cars for hours on end just so you can talk to each other and blame someone else for the congestion at the same.
Your hospital A & E will still be built, blue (and by gum I know how many lorries that puts on the road, I was involved in the building of the QE in Brum which has already been declared too small and they're going to continue to use the old relic of a hospital next door) but maybe it would be better for everybody except your business if companies closer to the hospital were awarded the contracts.
Nickyboy said:
blueg33 said:
You are right in that empirical data is hard to find. But the Road haulage Association were pretty pissed off, I found another report somewhere where they are quoted, but I can't find it now.
If not being able to pass makes so little difference to trucks, why are they so vehemently defending the position on here?
As for 3 lane motorways, the logic seems simple to me
On a busy M6 this week
Lane 1 circa 55mph
Lane 2 circa 65 mph
Lane 3 circa 75 mph
Truck limited to 56 mph pulls into lane 2 to overtake another truck doing 55mph
This means that lane 2 slows by 9 mph and as a result of insufficient space between cars and the odd muppet who stand on his brakes you get a concertina/ripple effect and cars further back have to slow harder. Some cars doing 65 move into lane 3 and continue to do 65, thus slowing lane 3, causing ripple effect etc. This slows all of the traffic.
Repeat ad nauseum for 2 hours and you can see why trucks overtaking can cause an issue.
You've contradicted yourself there, you state its the trucks that cause the issue yet you are blaming the cars doing 65 in lane 3 as well as those not leaving sufficient gap leading to those behind braking. If not being able to pass makes so little difference to trucks, why are they so vehemently defending the position on here?
As for 3 lane motorways, the logic seems simple to me
On a busy M6 this week
Lane 1 circa 55mph
Lane 2 circa 65 mph
Lane 3 circa 75 mph
Truck limited to 56 mph pulls into lane 2 to overtake another truck doing 55mph
This means that lane 2 slows by 9 mph and as a result of insufficient space between cars and the odd muppet who stand on his brakes you get a concertina/ripple effect and cars further back have to slow harder. Some cars doing 65 move into lane 3 and continue to do 65, thus slowing lane 3, causing ripple effect etc. This slows all of the traffic.
Repeat ad nauseum for 2 hours and you can see why trucks overtaking can cause an issue.
3 or 4 lane motorways can run perfectly fine when trucks are overtaking one another if you also have those numpties on the road as you said then the trucks passing each other aren't the cause
blueg33 said:
As for this topic, I am giving up because I really can't be arsed any more to try and explain to people who are so blinkered (as far as I can tell I am the only person on this thread whom has bothered to try and find any empirical evidence, the little there is supports my case) but hey lets ignore the facts- trucks must always be right.
It's not about being right.It's about trying to come up with a solution to what is obviously a problem to some.You can't solve one problem by creating another,just doesn't make sense to do that.
blueg33 said:
The cars doing 65mph in lane 3 have been pushed there by the trucks elephant racing, that is the prime cause of the car s moving out.
Lane changing is a fundamental cause of motorway jams
Here is some light reading on the topic
[urlRoad congestion and ripple effect study|http://www.cs.bath.ac.uk/~mdv/courses/CM30082/projects.bho/2008-9/shipp-dj-dissertation-2008-9.pdf[/url]
Vehicles moving more slowly than the bulk of lane 2 traffic will when then pull out cause the ripple effect that causes jams.
Its all in the paper above if you read it properly. I doubt you will though because you didn't even read my post properly
As for this topic, I am giving up because I really can't be arsed any more to try and explain to people who are so blinkered (as far as I can tell I am the only person on this thread whom has bothered to try and find any empirical evidence, the little there is supports my case) but hey lets ignore the facts- trucks must always be right.
I read your post perfectly well, no-one has forced anyone to go anywhere, if someone chooses to change lanes its their choice, if someone chooses to sit on the arse of the car in front its their choice, if they decide to travel at a slower speed than following traffic its their choice. A truck can pass another one without a problem if the drivers behind read and react to what is going on around them. If i can see i need to change lanes up ahead i don't sit 10ft off the car in front, i don't dawdle along at 60mph in lane 3 when passing slower traffic.Lane changing is a fundamental cause of motorway jams
Here is some light reading on the topic
[urlRoad congestion and ripple effect study|http://www.cs.bath.ac.uk/~mdv/courses/CM30082/projects.bho/2008-9/shipp-dj-dissertation-2008-9.pdf[/url]
Vehicles moving more slowly than the bulk of lane 2 traffic will when then pull out cause the ripple effect that causes jams.
Its all in the paper above if you read it properly. I doubt you will though because you didn't even read my post properly
As for this topic, I am giving up because I really can't be arsed any more to try and explain to people who are so blinkered (as far as I can tell I am the only person on this thread whom has bothered to try and find any empirical evidence, the little there is supports my case) but hey lets ignore the facts- trucks must always be right.
R0G said:
Simple solution = get out of the EU then we can scrap limiters and go back to how it was when commn sense ruled
In fairness Rog, the very best speed limiting I ever saw was the continental method before speed limiters, which was to levy on the spot fines based on tachograph evidence. If you weren't able to pay the fine then the truck was going nowhere until it was paid. The speed limit was/is 80kph so everyone did 90 but stuck to it. That 10kph leeway allowed trucks to pass each other.Meanwhile over here I'm not sure we ever did common sense in this country. Over here the limit was 60 which saw owner drivers doing 55 and those not paying the fuel bills doing 60-65, which meant you had just as many trucks in L2 then as you did today. Also factor in that then as now trucks would be overtaking cars throughout their shift, something that was extremely rare on the continent, and then as now you had order over there but chaos over here.
However we do chaos in all aspects of our lives over here I'd suggest, all that matters over here is money which is ironic given that all we seem to have is massive debt.
Edited by heebeegeetee on Friday 26th April 06:59
heebeegeetee said:
R0G said:
Simple solution = get out of the EU then we can scrap limiters and go back to how it was when commn sense ruled
In fairness Rog, the very best speed limiting I ever saw was the continental method before speed limiters, which was to levy on the spot fines based on tachograph evidence. If you weren't able to pay the fine then the truck was going nowhere until it was paid. The speed limit was/is 80kph so everyone did 90 but stuck to it. That 10kph leeway allowed trucks to pass each other.Meanwhile over here I'm not sure we ever did common sense in this country. Over here the limit was 60 which saw owner drivers doing 55 and those not paying the fuel bills doing 60-65, which meant you had just as many trucks in L2 then as you did today. Also factor in that then as now trucks would be overtaking cars throughout their shift, something that was extremely rare on the continent, and then as now you had order over there but chaos over here.
However we do chaos in all aspects of our lives over here I'd suggest, all that matters over here is money which is ironic given that all we seem to have is massive debt.
Edited by heebeegeetee on Friday 26th April 06:59
it'd be owner drivers ' becasue we can' and a few fleets ( with time sensitive cargos i.e. the 'overnight' parcels carriers and the like) who removed them - which would mean fewer anonymous 3.5 anmd 7.5 tonners heading up and down the M6 and A1 in the wee hours from the hubs to try and get the timed delivery packets to the local depots in time to load them onto the marked local vans ...
rohrl said:
loko said:
I,ve had several car drivers "dab" the brakes in front of me as a form of protest for being held up for a minute (at the most)
Unfortunately the last time some knob in a 5 series did it i forgot to disengage the cruise control and gave his rear bumper the gentlest of taps at 56mph, strangely he didnt stop but put his foot down and disappeared into the distance
If you really did that you're one of the pricks I mentioned and you should have your licence withdrawn.Unfortunately the last time some knob in a 5 series did it i forgot to disengage the cruise control and gave his rear bumper the gentlest of taps at 56mph, strangely he didnt stop but put his foot down and disappeared into the distance
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