Advice - FWD motorhomes
Discussion
Hi all,
Following my previous thread, the search has continued and although I have been in two minds whether to a) continue to search for a van with my c. 20k budget or b) wait a year or so and push that to 30k, I've come across something which is a bit different to what I had in mind (a Superbrig type thing) and wondered if any of you motorhome experts could shed any light.
It's a 2007 Hymer C622CL with 76k on the clock. Originally I felt the mileage was two high, but then I thought about it again and realised these things are far better for having been used and at c. 5k pa we're unlikely to put huge amounts of mileage on it. 95% of those miles have been on motorways according to the one and only owner. And has a FSH. Van (chassis & box) looks mint apart from stonechips commensurate with mileage. I'm also keen on the box because it's well sub-7m which means I can get it on the driveway, which will make it even more useable than having to store it off-site, locally.
BUT, I have been looking for a RWD van since I've always been concerned about the ability of FWD to deliver their drive properly given (I'm assuming) the majority of the weight will be over the rear wheels.
What are people's thoughts on both FWD and on the Ford Transit (Mk7) 2.2TDCi drivetrain?
BTW - private vendor wants c. 23k for it. I was thinking 21k - any thoughts?
Many thanks in advance.
Following my previous thread, the search has continued and although I have been in two minds whether to a) continue to search for a van with my c. 20k budget or b) wait a year or so and push that to 30k, I've come across something which is a bit different to what I had in mind (a Superbrig type thing) and wondered if any of you motorhome experts could shed any light.
It's a 2007 Hymer C622CL with 76k on the clock. Originally I felt the mileage was two high, but then I thought about it again and realised these things are far better for having been used and at c. 5k pa we're unlikely to put huge amounts of mileage on it. 95% of those miles have been on motorways according to the one and only owner. And has a FSH. Van (chassis & box) looks mint apart from stonechips commensurate with mileage. I'm also keen on the box because it's well sub-7m which means I can get it on the driveway, which will make it even more useable than having to store it off-site, locally.
BUT, I have been looking for a RWD van since I've always been concerned about the ability of FWD to deliver their drive properly given (I'm assuming) the majority of the weight will be over the rear wheels.
What are people's thoughts on both FWD and on the Ford Transit (Mk7) 2.2TDCi drivetrain?
BTW - private vendor wants c. 23k for it. I was thinking 21k - any thoughts?
Many thanks in advance.
Delete!
Just found out the van I was looking at doesn't have an oven / grill and worse still (in Mrs Spuff eyes), doesn't have a freezer!
Now back looking at a Kentucky Camp @ Motorlands - seem like really good guys and I am pretty keen to give them my business if I can get a free pass from the wife to get up there to see it.
Just found out the van I was looking at doesn't have an oven / grill and worse still (in Mrs Spuff eyes), doesn't have a freezer!
Now back looking at a Kentucky Camp @ Motorlands - seem like really good guys and I am pretty keen to give them my business if I can get a free pass from the wife to get up there to see it.
Hi
Which part of delivering the drive are you worried about in a fwd? My 2006 Ducato is fwd and I've not had any problems in this respect. It nearly was stuck once in a wet easter trip to Norfolk and my brother in law was towed off at the Silverstone Moto GP in 2012 but I believe nearly everyone was.
Out on the road during normal driving I haven't experienced anything that made me think that rwd would be better.
I would say the rwd configuration is very much the least common of the two so your available market is much reduced.
When I started to look the base vehicle and the driven wheels were the least of the concerns, the layout in the back was the most important for us. I wanted bunk beds for the 2 kids so this was what I went for as the main criteria.
I found a Transit based Chausson which I liked (Flash 03), the transit gets good reviews for the engine, 6 speed gearbox and spec, more have a/c and electric windows and the small steering wheel feels good. The cab is narrower than the Fiats so space to get between front and back is tighter. If you see 2 similar models on a Ford and Fiat you can see a larger outwards protrusion as the cab moulds to the habitation. I thought I would love it and buy it but inside the habitation part it just did not feel right. We looked at a Hymer too at Brownhills and again it just didn't feel right. As soon as we stepped into the van we bought it was more "us" (CI 656)
I can see the one on ebay that you refer to, I would have expected it to have a grill, most european vans don't have an oven though. Mine has had one fitted by a dealer afterwards by the previous owner. The freezer will be within the fridge, it looks like a dometic or thetford fridge/freezer so there will be a small section at the top. I see he has already dropped it from £25,250 down to £23,500. How does it compare to similar ones you have seen?
So overall, the habitation part is the main thing to get the style and layout right. A lot of people buy the wrong layout and then need to change, this is a massive cost. I researched for about a year and went to the shows etc, we bought this one 4 years ago (this week) (run into xmas, lower prices, no punters at the dealers) and it has worked well for us.
For the low mileage that generally is done in the MH, the upfront bit and the drive experience is just not that important to me.
This time around I am getting some new grippier tyres though as the Michelin XC Camping tyres are not renowned for their grip on wet grass. The camping bit stands for "sitting around fully loaded not moving so re-inforced" and not "get me off this wet field".
If you do start to move towards fwd, the 2007 model newer shape Ducatos have a bad reputation for clutch issues when reversing which makes people move across to Transits, Renaults or Mercedes.
Which part of delivering the drive are you worried about in a fwd? My 2006 Ducato is fwd and I've not had any problems in this respect. It nearly was stuck once in a wet easter trip to Norfolk and my brother in law was towed off at the Silverstone Moto GP in 2012 but I believe nearly everyone was.
Out on the road during normal driving I haven't experienced anything that made me think that rwd would be better.
I would say the rwd configuration is very much the least common of the two so your available market is much reduced.
When I started to look the base vehicle and the driven wheels were the least of the concerns, the layout in the back was the most important for us. I wanted bunk beds for the 2 kids so this was what I went for as the main criteria.
I found a Transit based Chausson which I liked (Flash 03), the transit gets good reviews for the engine, 6 speed gearbox and spec, more have a/c and electric windows and the small steering wheel feels good. The cab is narrower than the Fiats so space to get between front and back is tighter. If you see 2 similar models on a Ford and Fiat you can see a larger outwards protrusion as the cab moulds to the habitation. I thought I would love it and buy it but inside the habitation part it just did not feel right. We looked at a Hymer too at Brownhills and again it just didn't feel right. As soon as we stepped into the van we bought it was more "us" (CI 656)
I can see the one on ebay that you refer to, I would have expected it to have a grill, most european vans don't have an oven though. Mine has had one fitted by a dealer afterwards by the previous owner. The freezer will be within the fridge, it looks like a dometic or thetford fridge/freezer so there will be a small section at the top. I see he has already dropped it from £25,250 down to £23,500. How does it compare to similar ones you have seen?
So overall, the habitation part is the main thing to get the style and layout right. A lot of people buy the wrong layout and then need to change, this is a massive cost. I researched for about a year and went to the shows etc, we bought this one 4 years ago (this week) (run into xmas, lower prices, no punters at the dealers) and it has worked well for us.
For the low mileage that generally is done in the MH, the upfront bit and the drive experience is just not that important to me.
This time around I am getting some new grippier tyres though as the Michelin XC Camping tyres are not renowned for their grip on wet grass. The camping bit stands for "sitting around fully loaded not moving so re-inforced" and not "get me off this wet field".
If you do start to move towards fwd, the 2007 model newer shape Ducatos have a bad reputation for clutch issues when reversing which makes people move across to Transits, Renaults or Mercedes.
Hi blongs, thanks for that.
I think from speaking with the missus that she wants a bigger kitchen than that offered in the Hymer. The merits of it (length, Transit chassis), garage and modern look are offset by lack of big fridge / freezer & oven, mileage and (for me, anyway) driven wheels. Not sure why I have it in my head but difficult to overcome!
In terms of layout, we've only actually seen one but we like the layout - the Rimor / Kentucky rear bunks, rear bathroom and double & single dinette. Main thing for us is having room for my mountainbike to be kept inside the can (under the bottom bunk) and space for my daughter to sleep whilst myself and the wife lounge around in the evening and sleep in an over an bed.
The 2.4l of the RWD Transits have a good amount of poke and carrying capacity too, which is important as I don't want to be too worried about weight limits.
Kentucky Camp Estro 2 currently in pole position. Just need to get up to Preston now... 😐
I think from speaking with the missus that she wants a bigger kitchen than that offered in the Hymer. The merits of it (length, Transit chassis), garage and modern look are offset by lack of big fridge / freezer & oven, mileage and (for me, anyway) driven wheels. Not sure why I have it in my head but difficult to overcome!
In terms of layout, we've only actually seen one but we like the layout - the Rimor / Kentucky rear bunks, rear bathroom and double & single dinette. Main thing for us is having room for my mountainbike to be kept inside the can (under the bottom bunk) and space for my daughter to sleep whilst myself and the wife lounge around in the evening and sleep in an over an bed.
The 2.4l of the RWD Transits have a good amount of poke and carrying capacity too, which is important as I don't want to be too worried about weight limits.
Kentucky Camp Estro 2 currently in pole position. Just need to get up to Preston now... 😐
O.p, pop in to us and say hello if you make it up to Preston,instead of turning off the a583 to join the a584 to go to Motorlands just stick to the 583 we're just round the corner.
I'll happily nip round n give the Kentucky the once over tomorrow if you like,theres bugger all else to do at this time of year!
Carl at Motorlands will never oversell a van tho,hes got a brilliantly blunt lack of sales technique that i rather like.
I'll happily nip round n give the Kentucky the once over tomorrow if you like,theres bugger all else to do at this time of year!
Carl at Motorlands will never oversell a van tho,hes got a brilliantly blunt lack of sales technique that i rather like.
Thanks for all the help, guys - much appreciated.
NHW - so long as you don't have anything better to do, would be interested to hear what you think about the Kentucky. It was Brad I spoke to on the phone, who seemed like a pleasant and helpful chap.
The interesting thing is the two vans will be competed against eachother now by Mrs Spuff. She's back on board for the Hymer given I think she realised the lack of an oven is not a dealbreaker and she likes the modern looks and compact dimensions of the Hymer (plus if I'm honest, the garage suits me better for my mtbing. I'm comforted by the advice on here that FWD makes little difference to the overall experience / usefulness.
But I'm also keen on the Kentucky on the basis of the perceived robustness of it, the fact it's a good couple of grand cheaper, I'd be less precious about it when mtbing and has a little more in the way of space & convenience items (awning, big fridge/freezer, oven/grill etc) and a huge payload (up-plated to nigh on 4t). But it's also probably less fuel efficient (expecting somewhere around 20mpg vs. 28-30mpg for the 2.2 Hymer).
We'll see. I'm currently bidding the chap on the Hymer in the hope he'll meet me half way between top end of my budget and his asking price given I know he's keen to get rid. If he's not that keen, then I'll try and get up to Preston - both to see the Kentucky and also to buy NHW a cuppa for all the advice over this and other thread!
NHW - so long as you don't have anything better to do, would be interested to hear what you think about the Kentucky. It was Brad I spoke to on the phone, who seemed like a pleasant and helpful chap.
The interesting thing is the two vans will be competed against eachother now by Mrs Spuff. She's back on board for the Hymer given I think she realised the lack of an oven is not a dealbreaker and she likes the modern looks and compact dimensions of the Hymer (plus if I'm honest, the garage suits me better for my mtbing. I'm comforted by the advice on here that FWD makes little difference to the overall experience / usefulness.
But I'm also keen on the Kentucky on the basis of the perceived robustness of it, the fact it's a good couple of grand cheaper, I'd be less precious about it when mtbing and has a little more in the way of space & convenience items (awning, big fridge/freezer, oven/grill etc) and a huge payload (up-plated to nigh on 4t). But it's also probably less fuel efficient (expecting somewhere around 20mpg vs. 28-30mpg for the 2.2 Hymer).
We'll see. I'm currently bidding the chap on the Hymer in the hope he'll meet me half way between top end of my budget and his asking price given I know he's keen to get rid. If he's not that keen, then I'll try and get up to Preston - both to see the Kentucky and also to buy NHW a cuppa for all the advice over this and other thread!
We have an oven and have used it twice in 2 1/2 years, not fussed if the next van doesn't have one.
My parents changed to a van without and haven't bothered either and they go away for 5-6 weeks at a time.
A freezer on the other hand might be useful for the ice in the g&t!
P.S. We have an old Compass Drifter in a Fiat Ducato chassis and have never had a problem with traction.
My parents changed to a van without and haven't bothered either and they go away for 5-6 weeks at a time.
A freezer on the other hand might be useful for the ice in the g&t!
P.S. We have an old Compass Drifter in a Fiat Ducato chassis and have never had a problem with traction.
Sorry o.p, havnt checked the thread today and stuck at work now, will definitely nip round in the morning and check it out.
On the fwd,rwd thing, unless you are motocrossing and so spending all your time off terra firma with a big weight in the back then fwd is fine, I prefer it as the vans tend to sit a bit lower and be a bit more stable.
The fwd Transit was developed to take on the Fiat/Pug/Renault for the light commercial market so it got the 2.2 engine that Peugeot use too,its a good lump,quieter than the 2.4 and probably more economical too.
The earlier 2.2s were 115 or 130bhp and I think the 130 got a 6 speed box where as the 115 was definitely a 5 speed.
That Hymer will have the edge on finish and build quality for sure and damp shouldnt ever be much of a problem, the C class kitchens are comedically under equipped particularly for a 6/7 berth but if you're creative it shouldnt matter.
The mileage on it is mahoosive for a coachbuilt motorhome though,it wont be a problem for the vehicle or conversion but it will make it massively undesirable at re-sale time and particularly in that layout of van it will always scream ex-rental, it may well just of been round Europe many times with its one owner and not of been rented at all but it will always be tarred with the probable rental brush.
As a sneeky check try googling the model with for rent and see if it pops up,we've caught a few private owner/renters out like that!
If you're buying it to keep for a long time though and you can get it cheap enough then they are very nicely built and finished vans so I wouldnt put you off it at all, on our forecourt which is reasonably priced compared to some dealers we would be £26-27995 on that if it had normal mileage ie 30k or less, with the mileage its done we'd probably trade it out so I wouldnt really know what its worth, it might be worth giving a trade buyer or two a ring to see what theyd give for it,add a few thousand to this and youve a fare private sale price.
I'll nip round n check out the Kentucky in the morning.
E.T.A- Just checked out the ad, totally plausible reason for the mileage,we do get the odd person doing that,will still scare most people off come resale time though.
The van itself looks pretty sexy though with the silver pack, Hymer c622s were £44140 in 2007 in base spec so that may have been even more.
If hes used it as on site accomodation he may have claimed the vat back on it, Im not up on vat laws but worth checking that it wont become payable or that hes paying it on the sale price.
E.T.A,again- Worth asking if its been chipped as add quotes over 150 bhp, would be an understandable move if your doing lots of motorway miles
On the fwd,rwd thing, unless you are motocrossing and so spending all your time off terra firma with a big weight in the back then fwd is fine, I prefer it as the vans tend to sit a bit lower and be a bit more stable.
The fwd Transit was developed to take on the Fiat/Pug/Renault for the light commercial market so it got the 2.2 engine that Peugeot use too,its a good lump,quieter than the 2.4 and probably more economical too.
The earlier 2.2s were 115 or 130bhp and I think the 130 got a 6 speed box where as the 115 was definitely a 5 speed.
That Hymer will have the edge on finish and build quality for sure and damp shouldnt ever be much of a problem, the C class kitchens are comedically under equipped particularly for a 6/7 berth but if you're creative it shouldnt matter.
The mileage on it is mahoosive for a coachbuilt motorhome though,it wont be a problem for the vehicle or conversion but it will make it massively undesirable at re-sale time and particularly in that layout of van it will always scream ex-rental, it may well just of been round Europe many times with its one owner and not of been rented at all but it will always be tarred with the probable rental brush.
As a sneeky check try googling the model with for rent and see if it pops up,we've caught a few private owner/renters out like that!
If you're buying it to keep for a long time though and you can get it cheap enough then they are very nicely built and finished vans so I wouldnt put you off it at all, on our forecourt which is reasonably priced compared to some dealers we would be £26-27995 on that if it had normal mileage ie 30k or less, with the mileage its done we'd probably trade it out so I wouldnt really know what its worth, it might be worth giving a trade buyer or two a ring to see what theyd give for it,add a few thousand to this and youve a fare private sale price.
I'll nip round n check out the Kentucky in the morning.
E.T.A- Just checked out the ad, totally plausible reason for the mileage,we do get the odd person doing that,will still scare most people off come resale time though.
The van itself looks pretty sexy though with the silver pack, Hymer c622s were £44140 in 2007 in base spec so that may have been even more.
If hes used it as on site accomodation he may have claimed the vat back on it, Im not up on vat laws but worth checking that it wont become payable or that hes paying it on the sale price.
E.T.A,again- Worth asking if its been chipped as add quotes over 150 bhp, would be an understandable move if your doing lots of motorway miles
Edited by nagsheadwarrior on Tuesday 10th December 15:29
Edited by nagsheadwarrior on Tuesday 10th December 15:39
Edited by nagsheadwarrior on Tuesday 10th December 15:41
Thanks NHW - would be really keen to know your thoughts (PM me if you'd prefer) on the Kentucky since, all things being equal, I'd rather go with a dealer supplied van given there's some recourse if it all goes Pete tong and also as a first-timer, takes a lot of the confusion out of it.
I've been conversing with the Hymer owner. He seems pretty straight up but is fairly intransigent on price. He's already knocked it down a lot in his mind but I think it needs to go a fair bit further to take account of the high mileage and the resale issues I'll have later down the line.
Kentucky back in pole position!
I've been conversing with the Hymer owner. He seems pretty straight up but is fairly intransigent on price. He's already knocked it down a lot in his mind but I think it needs to go a fair bit further to take account of the high mileage and the resale issues I'll have later down the line.
Kentucky back in pole position!
Personally I would pick Rwd over FWD all day long but unfortunately it severely limits choice. I replaced a RWD Mercedes engined Compass with an Autotrail FWD Fiat 3.0. On a wet road it will try to spin the wheels from a standstill without provocation and on a damp road pulling uphill in first gear round a broken down truck in the Lake District I only just managed to keep up forward motion. I will only use sites with hard standing and it will severely limit winter usage in case of snow.
Theres the odd awd iveco based thing about,all north of £100k tho!
They did an awd Talbot Express back in the day,only ever seen one.
Nothing in between im afraid.
If fwd was incongruously useless 90% of Motorhomes wouldnt be fwd,most German coachbuilts are fwd just like ours and they survive.
I got stuck 2ft off a path in a fwd Bessacarr this time last year tho so I cant comment!
They did an awd Talbot Express back in the day,only ever seen one.
Nothing in between im afraid.
If fwd was incongruously useless 90% of Motorhomes wouldnt be fwd,most German coachbuilts are fwd just like ours and they survive.
I got stuck 2ft off a path in a fwd Bessacarr this time last year tho so I cant comment!
willtvr said:
Just have to be particular where you pitch most of the time. Only problem with AWD is that as far as I am aware nobody makes a coachbuilt.
I would have thought you could get a coach built on a 4motion base? I saw a few nice Karmanns on our Euro trip but T5 coach builds seen pretty rare.FWD plus little diesel plus very heavy coach built is a recipe for disaster. I've seen a few get very very stuck!
willtvr said:
Personally I would pick Rwd over FWD all day long but unfortunately it severely limits choice. I replaced a RWD Mercedes engined Compass with an Autotrail FWD Fiat 3.0. On a wet road it will try to spin the wheels from a standstill without provocation and on a damp road pulling uphill in first gear round a broken down truck in the Lake District I only just managed to keep up forward motion. I will only use sites with hard standing and it will severely limit winter usage in case of snow.
I love this PH response. . I presume it is not tongue in cheek?I have driven many FWD vans ( not campers) in the wet and snow without the problems you describe. i live on the isle of wight so steep winding wet roads are typical and the weight being pulled is equally heavy.
My RWD VW T25 has never been taken out in the snow, so I cannot comment there. I suspect not many people see snowfall and think 'I know what we will do today, pack the awning, deckchairs and BBQ, lets get the camper out..... '
Mike
Thanks for all the feedback.
I've bid on the Hymer, which has been provisionally accepted providing the auction runs its course without any improvement on that. If all goes my way then we'll hopefully have it before Xmas!
As and when, I'll be changing the tyres for Mud & Snow ones anyway, just to give that additional purchase on slippery ground as I know how good they've been on my 550i.
All being well, I'll hopefully have positive news in the next day or so!
I've bid on the Hymer, which has been provisionally accepted providing the auction runs its course without any improvement on that. If all goes my way then we'll hopefully have it before Xmas!
As and when, I'll be changing the tyres for Mud & Snow ones anyway, just to give that additional purchase on slippery ground as I know how good they've been on my 550i.
All being well, I'll hopefully have positive news in the next day or so!
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