Idle Speculation Question

[oblio]

chasingracecars said:

If you really need a car but aim to spend a while in the same area consider hiring a car.

That's what we do.

We pick sites with local public transport and then top this up with a couple/few days car hire.

Out of season prices can be ridiculously cheap. We hired from sites in Spain and can pay 30€ a day or so for 2-3 days but I know that if you can pick up from an airport and want it for a week/fortnight, prices can go as low as 10-12€ per day. Buying a year long insurance policy at home to cover the Excess keeps the prices down too.

I did the maths on whether to buy a car and transport it together with the hassle it causes and worked out that it was better for us to hire as and when. We figured that we wouldn't be using it every day so why have it sitting there. I have seen folks who have them abroad and their pitch is wrecked by having to put their MH, car and trailer on it...no/little room for relaxing.

Plus now when we stop somewhere overnight we just hook up and get the kettle on. The thought of having to sort a trailer out seems like too much hard work to me.

It would be worth checking the impact on ferry costs as well.

Don't get me wrong if its the right thing for your touring plans then go for it . Many folks do and they can't all be wrong. It would be worth joining some other forums aside from wild camping ones, to get some insights from folks who do. MotorhomeFacts, Motorhomer, Motorhomeowners; motorhomefun are just a few where you will get a good cross section of experience and insight.

[Doofus]

oblio said:

That's what we do.

We pick sites with local public transport and then top this up with a couple/few days car hire.

Out of season prices can be ridiculously cheap. We hired from sites in Spain and can pay 30€ a day or so for 2-3 days but I know that if you can pick up from an airport and want it for a week/fortnight, prices can go as low as 10-12€ per day. Buying a year long insurance policy at home to cover the Excess keeps the prices down too.

I did the maths on whether to buy a car and transport it together with the hassle it causes and worked out that it was better for us to hire as and when. We figured that we wouldn't be using it every day so why have it sitting there. I have seen folks who have them abroad and their pitch is wrecked by having to put their MH, car and trailer on it...no/little room for relaxing.

Plus now when we stop somewhere overnight we just hook up and get the kettle on. The thought of having to sort a trailer out seems like too much hard work to me.

It would be worth checking the impact on ferry costs as well.

Don't get me wrong if its the right thing for your touring plans then go for it . Many folks do and they can't all be wrong. It would be worth joining some other forums aside from wild camping ones, to get some insights from folks who do. MotorhomeFacts, Motorhomer, Motorhomeowners; motorhomefun are just a few where you will get a good cross section of experience and insight.

Thank you once again. Lot's of interesting stuff.

We're at idle speculation stage. The plan we had to buy a new house in UK has gone by the way due to having a st year last year, and losing a shedload of money. So the thought now is to relocate permanently to a new place in France, sell the house we already have there, and buy a MH to act as the 'second home'. So it'll be kept on the continent. My wife's found some very nice (aka 'expensive') A-classes - we only need 2 berths - but we're both struggling a bit with the secondary transport, given we have a dog. I probably can't afford/don't want/can't drive something big enough to have a car garage, so towing seems like the only option. Of course, rental makes sense for stays of a week or more.

What I don't know is where we'd go, for how long and how many days we'd stay in one place. My wife likes the idea of a degree of self-sufficiency, but I'm hung up on stuff like getting to the supermarket, and into towns and villages in a 7 ton truck.

And, BTW, a caravan is not the answer.

[wilksy61]

I'm also looking at the larger 2 berth MH in the near future and the possibility of towing, my budget is quite going to be £150K but for that is there not the type that can actually accommodate a Smart car sized vehicle within itself.

I think Concorde and Arto do one.

[Doofus]

wilksy61 said:

I'm also looking at the larger 2 berth MH in the near future and the possibility of towing, my budget is quite going to be £150K but for that is there not the type that can actually accommodate a Smart car sized vehicle within itself.

I think Concorde and Arto do one.

They do, but I don't have an HGV license.

ETA Plus, I suspect getting onto sites would be even harder in a 12+ tonner.

[wilksy61]

This one has a maximum weight of just under 7500kg so can you not drive that on a C1 normal car licence.

https://www.caravansforsale.co.uk/motorhome/rhd-co...

Its quite expensive though

[Doofus]

wilksy61 said:

This one has a maximum weight of just under 7500kg so can you not drive that on a C1 normal car licence.

https://www.caravansforsale.co.uk/motorhome/rhd-co...

Its quite expensive though

Yes, that would be ok on a C1.

And yes, it's expensive. We've never MHed before (but came close to buying a boat a couple of years back, so we are happy with 'compromised' living space ), but I've kind of set a limit of 150k, knowing that will inevitably creep.

[oblio]

Doofus said:

wilksy61 said:

I'm also looking at the larger 2 berth MH in the near future and the possibility of towing, my budget is quite going to be £150K but for that is there not the type that can actually accommodate a Smart car sized vehicle within itself.

I think Concorde and Arto do one.

They do, but I don't have an HGV license.

ETA Plus, I suspect getting onto sites would be even harder in a 12+ tonner.

I don't think you need an HGV licence for some of the integral garage ones. Some are less than 7.5t I think (happy to be corrected though).

If you passed your test before 1997 you can drive up to 7.5t base vehicle plus trailer.

OP - if you are going to base your MH on the Continent it might be worth getting a left hooker. Just watch out for the spec as not all come with an oven and/or grill and/or microwave. It all depends on what you will use....and as always check the payload that is available very carefully especially if you are planning to spend long periods away in it (bearing in mind that any extras on the MH will come out of your payload allowance).

We use our microwave the most as we batch cook some meals at home and take them with us to supplement the BBQ's, dining out etc. I also carry a G3 Ferrari pizza oven as well, which also makes a nice change (make and freeze dough balls at home and take them with us).

We occasionally use the grill for toast but haven't used our oven in the year that we have had our current MH.

I'm happy if you want to PM me if there's anything you want to discuss. We've been doing it for a few years now so have made many mistakes

[wilksy61]

It is nice though, what's another £100K for happiness, in all honesty if I could I would but my budget will get me an Auto Sleepers Corinium Duo, which will suit me for a while.

[Doofus]

oblio said:

Yes more stuff

I think most Integrateds are European-built, so we'd buy in Europe anyway. I'm pretty sure I could still fet some UK-specific features if we wanted.

I see that the rear lounge setup is considered a 'British' thing, and presumably that's because of the weather, and MHers in the UK spending more time inside? The idea of a fixed bed seems like a waste of space somehow.

I know what I can do with my C1 (I passed my test just over 30 years ago), but initial investigations suggested trucks with car garages were over 7.5t. Mind you, we started off looking at low profiles, for aesthetic reasons mainly. Which is a bit silly...

So if we accept we'll be driving a fridge rather than a SportsVan. that does offer options for car garages, I suppose. But then, I've also been told that much over 3m in height will restrict your options too. It's a bloofy minefield!

Thank you for the offer of a PM conversation, and thank you for your time on here. At the moment, it's general questions and opinions we're after, really, because we've no experience, and no real prospect of getting to a show anytime soon to go and sit on some...

[oblio]

no worries

We have a fixed bed at the back of ours but our layout (Autotrail Comanche) has a 2 couches at the front so we can both sprawl. We do tend to spend more time in it than most (Mrs O has MS) plus we tour all year round and as the weather can be changeable.

Our first MH had a rear lounge where you had to make the bed up every day. For us: never again! It doesn't sound much but lugging all the bedding up there and then stowing it the next day is a pain especially if its a hot night or you are knackered/pissed

The only real time I see the effects of being over 3m in height is on the French motorways where being over 3500kg and 3m in height puts you into Class 3 for tolls...which are significantly higher than the normal Class 2. Our MH is a nudge over 3m (maybe 3.02 or 3) and is 5t when fully loaded. We have a Tag for the French motorways however from our car touring days and use it in the MH without any problems. AFAICT they don't weigh vehicles at toll booths but some do have height sensors.

I can't think that I have had a problem on any campsite, aire or Stelplatz on height and nor can I recall any sites saying they wont accept taller MHs. The thing to be aware of are low hanging branches which can be a right tt if you get it wrong (my fixed aerial came off when we were leaving our last site in Spain in late Feb this year due to a low branch on our pitch!).

[Doofus]

OK, so ignoring cars and trailers for the moment, what sort of payload do I need? 2 people and a dog, plus the wherewithall for, say a month on the road (let's include a couple of e-bikes at, say, 15kg each).

I've never weighed my underpants before (wet or dry), so don't have much idea what I'm looking at.

[oblio]

Doofus said:

OK, so ignoring cars and trailers for the moment, what sort of payload do I need? 2 people and a dog, plus the wherewithall for, say a month on the road (let's include a couple of e-bikes at, say, 15kg each).

I've never weighed my underpants before (wet or dry), so don't have much idea what I'm looking at.

I cant truthfully answer that for you.

The MIRO - Mass in Running Order of any MH - usually equates to a person weighing 75kg and a full tank of fuel. After this the payload is calculated HOWEVER the payload will include gas bottles, wind out canopy or awning, solar panels, bike rack, leisure batteries etc etc...these come out of your payload allowance. They add up in terms of weight.

Then add in stuff that you want to take: beer, wife's shoe collection, beer. BBQ, beer, at least 1 spare pair of underpants, beer, food, beer, dog food, beer, tool kit etc etc...in fact everything and anything that you want to take with you...this forms your payload.

Then add in fresh water - especially if you are going off grid (1 litre = 1kg) - and grey water if you cannot safely dump it. You might also want to carry a spare cassette for your toilet if going off grid. This also forms your payload.

Our Bessacarr (our first MH) had a payload of 580kg which I was never comfortable with. Our current MH is 850kg which I don't even think about now as its ample. For me, I would be looking at figures north of 700kg to be personally comfortable and then have no worries (apart from making sure that it you have it evenly spread so not too much on any axle).

All you can do is make sure that you check the payload allowance BEFORE committing to a certain MH.

I have a twin axle with a huge payload so I really don't think about it too much tbh.

Worth reading up on though. Here is as good a start as any...

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/artic...

Please don't let any of this faze you. I reckon loads of MH'ers don't give a toss about this stuff but I think it's worth knowing a bit and being aware of the issues before you buy. There are oodles of MH's out there that will suit you in terms of layout and payload so don't worry.

[Doofus]

oblio said:

I cant truthfully answer that for you.

The MIRO - Mass in Running Order of any MH - usually equates to a person weighing 75kg and a full tank of fuel. After this the payload is calculated HOWEVER the payload will include gas bottles, wind out canopy or awning, solar panels, bike rack, leisure batteries etc etc...these come out of your payload allowance. They add up in terms of weight.

Then add in stuff that you want to take: beer, wife's shoe collection, beer. BBQ, beer, at least 1 spare pair of underpants, beer, food, beer, dog food, beer, tool kit etc etc...in fact everything and anything that you want to take with you...this forms your payload.

Then add in fresh water - especially if you are going off grid (1 litre = 1kg) - and grey water if you cannot safely dump it. You might also want to carry a spare cassette for your toilet if going off grid. This also forms your payload.

Our Bessacarr (our first MH) had a payload of 580kg which I was never comfortable with. Our current MH is 850kg which I don't even think about now as its ample. For me, I would be looking at figures north of 700kg to be personally comfortable and then have no worries (apart from making sure that it you have it evenly spread so not too much on any axle).

All you can do is make sure that you check the payload allowance BEFORE committing to a certain MH.

I have a twin axle with a huge payload so I really don't think about it too much tbh.

Worth reading up on though. Here is as good a start as any...

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/artic...

Please don't let any of this faze you. I reckon loads of MH'ers don't give a toss about this stuff but I think it's worth knowing a bit and being aware of the issues before you buy. There are oodles of MH's out there that will suit you in terms of layout and payload so don't worry.

Thank you again I was talking about clothes, barbecue, beer etc. I'm adding awnings, water and so on into the MIRO, so it was just about how much luggage weighs, I guess.

Take, for example, something we've seen (not physically) with a GVW of 5,500, and it's specced up to 4,807 MIRO. 8.8ish long, with a tag axle.

[oblio]

Doofus said:

oblio said:

I cant truthfully answer that for you.

The MIRO - Mass in Running Order of any MH - usually equates to a person weighing 75kg and a full tank of fuel. After this the payload is calculated HOWEVER the payload will include gas bottles, wind out canopy or awning, solar panels, bike rack, leisure batteries etc etc...these come out of your payload allowance. They add up in terms of weight.

Then add in stuff that you want to take: beer, wife's shoe collection, beer. BBQ, beer, at least 1 spare pair of underpants, beer, food, beer, dog food, beer, tool kit etc etc...in fact everything and anything that you want to take with you...this forms your payload.

Then add in fresh water - especially if you are going off grid (1 litre = 1kg) - and grey water if you cannot safely dump it. You might also want to carry a spare cassette for your toilet if going off grid. This also forms your payload.

Our Bessacarr (our first MH) had a payload of 580kg which I was never comfortable with. Our current MH is 850kg which I don't even think about now as its ample. For me, I would be looking at figures north of 700kg to be personally comfortable and then have no worries (apart from making sure that it you have it evenly spread so not too much on any axle).

All you can do is make sure that you check the payload allowance BEFORE committing to a certain MH.

I have a twin axle with a huge payload so I really don't think about it too much tbh.

Worth reading up on though. Here is as good a start as any...

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/artic...

Please don't let any of this faze you. I reckon loads of MH'ers don't give a toss about this stuff but I think it's worth knowing a bit and being aware of the issues before you buy. There are oodles of MH's out there that will suit you in terms of layout and payload so don't worry.

Thank you again I was talking about clothes, barbecue, beer etc. I'm adding awnings, water and so on into the MIRO, so it was just about how much luggage weighs, I guess.

Take, for example, something we've seen (not physically) with a GVW of 5,500, and it's specced up to 4,807 MIRO. 8.8ish long, with a tag axle.

700kg in your example would do me fine IF that was the payload AFTER the extras. Personally I would have no issues with 700kg. Ours is an 8.7m tag axle with a payload of 850 minus extras so very probably similar to your example.

The MIRO wouldn't normally include items that make it specced up as you say. If you are buying second hand it is unlikely that the dealer will recalculate the payload for you taking into account all the extras that have been fitted. These would have to come out of your payload.

If you can get a list of what the extras are ABOVE the MIRO then some man maths will give you an approx figure of the extra weight added. Most items weight can be found on line.

The full answer would be that if you fancy any vehicle, ask the dealer to provide you with a weighbridge certificate: total weight of the vehicle and also on each axle. They are cheap to do so if they argue the toss then you could offer to pay for it (£20 or so I think)...mind you if they want the sale then they should accommodate you really.

[Doofus]

oblio said:

If you can get a list of what the extras are ABOVE the MIRO then some man maths will give you an approx figure of the extra weight added. Most items weight can be found on line.

That's what we're doing, using the manufacturer's pricelists, and I'm adding those extras to the MIRO so I can compare apples with apples across different vehicles. Some have an awning as standard, for instance, and others don't, but one can be optioned.

[oblio]

Doofus said:

oblio said:

If you can get a list of what the extras are ABOVE the MIRO then some man maths will give you an approx figure of the extra weight added. Most items weight can be found on line.

That's what we're doing, using the manufacturer's pricelists, and I'm adding those extras to the MIRO so I can compare apples with apples across different vehicles. Some have an awning as standard, for instance, and others don't, but one can be optioned.

Good shout.

Each manufacturer will publish what they include in their MIRO so you can double check that too (wind out awnings are not usually included btw even if fitted as standard, I believe) in case it differs.

Factor in 2 x 13kg Calor gas if you can fit the larger ones in, unless you go for some kind of refillable system. If you are off grid and/or travelling when its cold you'll need it for heating, water heating and cooking plus as you can't refill/exchange them abroad it's worth carrying the 2.

We use 1 full one a year so have never seen the need to install a refillable system but we mostly use sites where we plug in and use electricity for heating (unless its an ACSI site which is limited to 4KWh per day, in which case we use gas).

Oh and 2 x leisure batteries as well plus a solar panel (re: going off grid)

Its all heavy kit but important given what you fancy doing

[Doofus]

Looks like the budget has begun to creep already, and I need to be looking at 7t chassis...

[oblio]

Doofus said:

Looks like the budget has begun to creep already, and I need to be looking at 7t chassis...

I reckon you'd be fine with a standard or tag axle MH. There are some hefty payloads out there...

Make sure to go for the most powerful engine option as well. Its not just a PH thing ...but well worth it if you are loaded up.

[VEX]

Going back to places to stay for a bit, have a look at France Passion, which is a network of farms, vineyards etc that allow you to stay if you are totally self contained. Much like Aires.

We used them and will them again as a great way to see real French life and meet some great friend people.

With regards to weight, don’t forget that you can easily upgrade the weight capacity of most MotorHomes (Coach and A Class) with simple rear air and upgraded front springs. We are looking at at-least fitting air on the rear of our A Class 7.5m, but with 2 Adults, 2 Teenagers and holiday gear we do push the limits a bit.

Ps. We (adults) can’t wait to retire and disappear off around Europe for 3-6months or so.

V

[Doofus]

VEX said:

We used them and will them again as a great way to see real French life and meet some great friend people.

The France Passon advice is useful, thanks. We've had a place in France for getting on for 20 years, and spend several months there each year. Plus I've worked in Paris, Lyon and Angouleme, and one concern I have over staying on campsites is that we wouldn't be enjoying 'real French life'.