Is there a god/Allah/Supreme being?
Discussion
-DeaDLocK- said:
Imagine a bathtub full of water. All the molecules of water could, at any given minute, and completely by random chance decide to move in the same direction at once. Should this happen all the water would achieve a momentum to carry it out of the bathtub and onto the floor. In reality this can't happen, but only because it represents a statistical probablitiy so small as to be thought impossible.
Imagine a universe full of matter. All the molecules of the matter could, at any given minute, and completely by random chance decide to interact with each other in a particular fashion all at once. Should this happen the matter would form an amazing cohesion that eventually creates life on this earth. In reality this can't happen, but only because it represents a statistical probablitiy so small as to be thought impossible.
probabilty = number of tries/number of outcomes.
Bathtub water = 1/infinity = very small probability
Universe = infinity/infinity = probable.
Unless, of course you bath a lot.
Jinx said:
So using logic and reasoning we have proven to ourselves that something beyond our ken cannot exist?
Anyone see anything circular about that arguement?
I don't think that is the case, if you mean what i think you are saying. I think you'll find that most 'non-believers' will probably believe in life elsewhere in the universe, in whatever form they may be. However, that does not have anything to do with a God-like being. We may well be a science experiment by a visiting group od 'alien scientists' so to speak, and they meddled with the planet, or what have you, but that would not make them supreme beings. The same as scientist with a petri dish.
A supreme being is different. An all powerful, creator of the entire existence of everything... That is what i find to be unbelievable, not the admittence that there probably lifeforms out there that are a great deal more advanced than us.
(not sure if anyone will grasp what i am on about, as reading it back its a fit fuzzy, but what the hell)
charlescrawley said:
in my post i was simply stating that i did not believe that the universe, life and all that are down to chance. I believe the universe, life and everything were planned. Call it a science experiment, buy what? I don't know, but experience in life has taught me that the world and/or universe is simply not that lucky.
With all due respect vixpy1, your concept of "luck" cannot conceive the size of the numbers that you need to take into account. Let's say there are 100 billion solar systems of all types in our galaxy. Now take a value of total galaxies that we can observe, which is currently postulated to be 125 billion. That makes possibly 12,500,000,000,000,000,000,000 solar systems if all galaxies are similar to ours (some are larger and some smaller though, so may even out)... What infinitesimal chance can we put on the chance of life appearing in just one of those systems? No idea... But simple chance could easily acount for life. In its most simple state, life is not that complicated and the nature of our replicating DNA ensures that it will change and mutate over
put it like this.. look at the human body and tell my you don't get even the slighted inkling that it was designed.
charlescrawley said:
With all due respect vixpy1, your concept of "luck" cannot conceive the size of the numbers that you need to take into account. Let's say there are 100 billion solar systems of all types in our galaxy. Now take a value of total galaxies that we can observe, which is currently postulated to be 125 billion. That makes possibly 12,500,000,000,000,000,000,000 solar systems if all galaxies are similar to ours (some are larger and some smaller though, so may even out)... What infinitesimal chance can we put on the chance of life appearing in just one of those systems? No idea... But simple chance could easily acount for life. In its most simple state, life is not that complicated and the nature of our replicating DNA ensures that it will change and mutate over time, leading to more complex life...
"luck" and probability are not the same thing. For probability to work "luck" must be evenly spread through the system. This never happens.
If you treat Luck (spawnious gitus) like energy in a system (enthalpy) it would disperse itself randomly so that some-bodies posses large amounts and others very little. Each time two bodies meet an incident occurs but when two bodies of high "luck" meet a coincidence occurs. This would then lead to dramatically high levels of "small world" and other such inane dribblings about fate, destiny etc. where perfectly rational bodies try to explain chance and probability in terms of cause and effect.
vixpy1 said:
vixpy1 said:
in my post i was simply stating that i did not believe that the universe, life and all that are down to chance. I believe the universe, life and everything were planned. Call it a science experiment, buy what? I don't know, but experience in life has taught me that the world and/or universe is simply not that lucky.
With all due respect vixpy1, your concept of "luck" cannot conceive the size of the numbers that you need to take into account. Let's say there are 100 billion solar systems of all types in our galaxy. Now take a value of total galaxies that we can observe, which is currently postulated to be 125 billion. That makes possibly 12,500,000,000,000,000,000,000 solar systems if all galaxies are similar to ours (some are larger and some smaller though, so may even out)... What infinitesimal chance can we put on the chance of life appearing in just one of those systems? No idea... But simple chance could easily acount for life. In its most simple state, life is not that complicated and the nature of our replicating DNA ensures that it will change and mutate over
put it like this.. look at the human body and tell my you don't get even the slighted inkling that it was designed.
I don't want to take this analogy too far 
, but I'll bet there are many millions of bathtubs and bodies of water in the world every day. And I've never heard a report of a single one suddenly moving of its own will.
There are many trillions of galaxies, and I've so far only heard of one that has done what I've described.
The odds are, I think, similar. Then again maybe I'm talking bollox.
Anyway religion has such a nice draw that many folks are fashionably religious - pretty girls in church are a pretty good incentive.
, but I'll bet there are many millions of bathtubs and bodies of water in the world every day. And I've never heard a report of a single one suddenly moving of its own will. There are many trillions of galaxies, and I've so far only heard of one that has done what I've described.
The odds are, I think, similar. Then again maybe I'm talking bollox.
Anyway religion has such a nice draw that many folks are fashionably religious - pretty girls in church are a pretty good incentive.
andy mac said:
So using logic and reasoning we have proven to ourselves that something beyond our ken cannot exist?
Anyone see anything circular about that arguement?
We may well be a science experiment by a visiting group od 'alien scientists' so to speak, and they meddled with the planet, or what have you, but that would not make them supreme beings. The same as scientist with a petri dish.
Not sure i'd ever agree with you on this thread but that is what i'm getting at
vixpy1 said:
put it like this.. look at the human body and tell my you don't get even the slighted inkling that it was designed.
I don't, because we have organs in our body (appendix for one) that perform no or little function now, but are functional in organisms below us evolutionarily...
-DeaDLocK- said:
I don't want to take this analogy too far
There are many trillions of galaxies, and I've so far only heard of one that has done what I've described.
The odds are, I think, similar. Then again maybe I'm talking bollox.
Anyway religion has such a nice draw that many folks are fashionably religious - pretty girls in church are a pretty good incentive.
No argument there, but you may be wasting your time if you expect them to put out for you.
andy mac said:
I don't think that is the case, if you mean what i think you are saying. I think you'll find that most 'non-believers' will probably believe in life elsewhere in the universe, in whatever form they may be. However, that does not have anything to do with a God-like being. We may well be a science experiment by a visiting group od 'alien scientists' so to speak, and they meddled with the planet, or what have you, but that would not make them supreme beings. The same as scientist with a petri dish.
A supreme being is different. An all powerful, creator of the entire existence of everything... That is what i find to be unbelievable, not the admittence that there probably lifeforms out there that are a great deal more advanced than us.
(not sure if anyone will grasp what i am on about, as reading it back its a fit fuzzy, but what the hell)
What I was alluding to was that as finite beings, the infinite being will always be beyond our ability to prove/disprove as we lack the cognitive processes necessary.
-DeaDLocK- said:
I don't want to take this analogy too far
There are many trillions of galaxies, and I've so far only heard of one that has done what I've described.
The odds are, I think, similar. Then again maybe I'm talking bollox.
Anyway religion has such a nice draw that many folks are fashionably religious - pretty girls in church are a pretty good incentive.
We only know of hours because we cannot see far enough... But using collective intelligence throughout thw world, they conclude that the probability is that there is life out there... What is the probability that we were made by a supreme being called dave in his shed?
vixpy1 said:
vixpy1 said:
in my post i was simply stating that i did not believe that the universe, life and all that are down to chance. I believe the universe, life and everything were planned. Call it a science experiment, buy what? I don't know, but experience in life has taught me that the world and/or universe is simply not that lucky.
With all due respect vixpy1, your concept of "luck" cannot conceive the size of the numbers that you need to take into account. Let's say there are 100 billion solar systems of all types in our galaxy. Now take a value of total galaxies that we can observe, which is currently postulated to be 125 billion. That makes possibly 12,500,000,000,000,000,000,000 solar systems if all galaxies are similar to ours (some are larger and some smaller though, so may even out)... What infinitesimal chance can we put on the chance of life appearing in just one of those systems? No idea... But simple chance could easily acount for life. In its most simple state, life is not that complicated and the nature of our replicating DNA ensures that it will change and mutate over
put it like this.. look at the human body and tell my you don't get even the slighted inkling that it was designed.
Of course it was, it was designed by natural neccesity down to the environment it evolved into.
For proof, see the extinction of the Sabre Tooth tiger.
Clumsy animal, relied on long grass.
Climate changed, grass disappeared, no more sabre tooth tigers.
Darwin is not and has never been mistaken...
charlescrawley said:
put it like this.. look at the human body and tell my you don't get even the slighted inkling that it was designed.
I don't, because we have organs in our body (appendix for one) that perform no or little function now, but are functional in organisms below us evolutionarily...
I still believe all life on earth was designed.. can't prove it, but believe it!
vixpy1 said:
Jinx said:
So using logic and reasoning we have proven to ourselves that something beyond our ken cannot exist?
Anyone see anything circular about that arguement?
We may well be a science experiment by a visiting group od 'alien scientists' so to speak, and they meddled with the planet, or what have you, but that would not make them supreme beings. The same as scientist with a petri dish.
Not sure i'd ever agree with you on this thread but that is what i'm getting at
But scientist with petri dish does not make for a supreme being.
vixpy1 said:
vixpy1 said:
put it like this.. look at the human body and tell my you don't get even the slighted inkling that it was designed.
I don't, because we have organs in our body (appendix for one) that perform no or little function now, but are functional in organisms below us evolutionarily...
I still believe all life on earth was designed.. can't prove it, but believe it!
But why do you believe? Logical answer, not one that states cos we look a bit complicated.
andy mac said:
andy mac said:
Jinx said:
So using logic and reasoning we have proven to ourselves that something beyond our ken cannot exist?
Anyone see anything circular about that arguement?
We may well be a science experiment by a visiting group od 'alien scientists' so to speak, and they meddled with the planet, or what have you, but that would not make them supreme beings. The same as scientist with a petri dish.
Not sure i'd ever agree with you on this thread but that is what i'm getting at
But scientist with petri dish does not make for a supreme being.
At no point in my previous posts did i say i believed in ONE supreme being. There could have been an entire world of them, but we WERE created buy something.
A whole planet of supreme beings? Hmmm... lets hope they do not have a civil war then. If you were a supreme being, would you live on a planet?
Why do you believe we were created by something? What makes you think that we had to have been created, and not jsut evolved froma primeival stew? What made the things that created us? The line goes on, so that there will never be a supremem being. Something had to of created everything, thus something must have created the creater, which was made by a creator, and so on. There is no individuual thing that sparked off life, because by definition, it must of had a life of some sort before it decided to do some creating... see what i mean?
Why do you believe we were created by something? What makes you think that we had to have been created, and not jsut evolved froma primeival stew? What made the things that created us? The line goes on, so that there will never be a supremem being. Something had to of created everything, thus something must have created the creater, which was made by a creator, and so on. There is no individuual thing that sparked off life, because by definition, it must of had a life of some sort before it decided to do some creating... see what i mean?
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