Still more replies to McLaren F1 questions and com
Discussion
You may have read the "evo" article that R. Atkinson wrote about the F1 and C. GT a few months back. In it he proposes a sort of equivalency formula based on the idea that "Knowledge is power". He suggests that a tyre-pressure monitor, external temperature gauge and sat-nav (all of which the CGT has but the F1 lacks) are worth 50 bhp. An interesting concept.
With respect to superchargers, to my mind they (and some of its dubious design gimmicks) are what fatally flaw the new Ford GT.
After (if) we get the F1's handling sorted out I shall resume the search for ways to remove weight. Less weight gives better handling, better braking and more acceleration at the same time (well, not at the same time, but in the same car).
With respect to superchargers, to my mind they (and some of its dubious design gimmicks) are what fatally flaw the new Ford GT.
After (if) we get the F1's handling sorted out I shall resume the search for ways to remove weight. Less weight gives better handling, better braking and more acceleration at the same time (well, not at the same time, but in the same car).
I note from the video that you've already took the cheapest option in weight saving by having a sharp haircut. I'm sure G Murray would approve. I bet he just gringes if some fat guy drives or one of the Sultans keeps his robes on but iirc a Sultan paid or at least contributed to the development costs so I guess he wasn't too stroppy about it.
I hope you know i'm jesting about handling, turbos, etc...
I did read his article. I also read elsewhere that driver training can make a huge difference but I assume you've already addressed that.
dan
I hope you know i'm jesting about handling, turbos, etc...
I did read his article. I also read elsewhere that driver training can make a huge difference but I assume you've already addressed that.
dan
[quote]Yes, the F1 has monoblock aluminium calipers (four pot front and back), so there is little potential for weight-savings there[/quote]
Just a thought probably a silly one. Titanium pistons in the calipers? would save on unsprung weight? If teh origonals are made of iron then 16 titanimum ones may be quite a saving.
Crescent Suzuki fit them to motorbikes to save weight I beleive.
>> Edited by pesty on Friday 15th October 02:02
Just a thought probably a silly one. Titanium pistons in the calipers? would save on unsprung weight? If teh origonals are made of iron then 16 titanimum ones may be quite a saving.
Crescent Suzuki fit them to motorbikes to save weight I beleive.
>> Edited by pesty on Friday 15th October 02:02
Flemke/FIemke,
Looks like you had a bit of a moment (maybe a crest?), about 2 minutes into part 2 of your video after coming off a series of straight bends. Don't you love that, when you can see a straight line through a series of bends and just floor it?
The car appears to have a very neutral stance into most of the corners and there's not much corrective steering. Is this because you weren't pushing her? I remember Tiff Needell's drive on Top Gear many moons ago, where he appeared to get a lot more oversteer. I've no doubt that Tiff was driving the pants off it at the time though and probably kicked the back end out on purpose for the cameras. But the reality seems to be that the car handles much better if driven properly.
Thanks for the video links.
P.s. It's nice to see another ph'er who's follically challenged.
Looks like you had a bit of a moment (maybe a crest?), about 2 minutes into part 2 of your video after coming off a series of straight bends. Don't you love that, when you can see a straight line through a series of bends and just floor it?
The car appears to have a very neutral stance into most of the corners and there's not much corrective steering. Is this because you weren't pushing her? I remember Tiff Needell's drive on Top Gear many moons ago, where he appeared to get a lot more oversteer. I've no doubt that Tiff was driving the pants off it at the time though and probably kicked the back end out on purpose for the cameras. But the reality seems to be that the car handles much better if driven properly.
Thanks for the video links.
P.s. It's nice to see another ph'er who's follically challenged.
Anniesdad,
The most challenging thing to me about the circuit is all its camber changes and bumps. Although it appears that the section that you mention (and the descent of the Fuchsrohre too) can be taken in a straight-ish way, you really need to work in sympathy with the topological changes or you have a problem.
Tiff Needell does oversteer for a living and is fantastically skilled at it. There are some places at the 'Ring where you can do it (see "Yellowbird" with Stefan Roser), but I am not the man for the job.
What you can notice (if I have mentioned this already, sorry for the repetition) are steering wheel corrections. What would happen is that I would turn the wheel a certain amount, then add a bit more lock as the car was not turning quite as much as I expected, and then a moment later the contact patches would finally align with the axis of the wheels, the car would turn that bit more, and I would have to trim the steering back slightly.
You can definitely get the car to oversteer if you wish, but I aspire (futilely) to smoothness and efficiency.
The tyres are now distinctly the source of lateral compliance and instability. I can, however, appreciate how the designers originally sought the same level of compliance throughout the car. You could argue that in its original form the car was more integrated (as in, consistent) in its overall compliance than it is now, even though my car now handles better than standard. It won't be right, however, until the tyres are sorted out.
>> Edited by fIemke on Friday 15th October 13:22
The most challenging thing to me about the circuit is all its camber changes and bumps. Although it appears that the section that you mention (and the descent of the Fuchsrohre too) can be taken in a straight-ish way, you really need to work in sympathy with the topological changes or you have a problem.
Tiff Needell does oversteer for a living and is fantastically skilled at it. There are some places at the 'Ring where you can do it (see "Yellowbird" with Stefan Roser), but I am not the man for the job.
What you can notice (if I have mentioned this already, sorry for the repetition) are steering wheel corrections. What would happen is that I would turn the wheel a certain amount, then add a bit more lock as the car was not turning quite as much as I expected, and then a moment later the contact patches would finally align with the axis of the wheels, the car would turn that bit more, and I would have to trim the steering back slightly.
You can definitely get the car to oversteer if you wish, but I aspire (futilely) to smoothness and efficiency.
The tyres are now distinctly the source of lateral compliance and instability. I can, however, appreciate how the designers originally sought the same level of compliance throughout the car. You could argue that in its original form the car was more integrated (as in, consistent) in its overall compliance than it is now, even though my car now handles better than standard. It won't be right, however, until the tyres are sorted out.
>> Edited by fIemke on Friday 15th October 13:22
Found this whilst I was surfing...
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/8139/odgumcbl.html
It's got the ears and everything.
Anyone else know of a 1:18 scale model of their car? I must say though, I've seen better scale models.
Flemke,
Re: Tyres. Would 45 profile run-flats be an option, what with their stiffer sidewalls if you can source them? Or am I talking out of my top hat as the F1 comes with run-flats anyway?
>> Edited by anniesdad on Wednesday 22 December 14:23
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/8139/odgumcbl.html
It's got the ears and everything.
Anyone else know of a 1:18 scale model of their car? I must say though, I've seen better scale models.
Flemke,
Re: Tyres. Would 45 profile run-flats be an option, what with their stiffer sidewalls if you can source them? Or am I talking out of my top hat as the F1 comes with run-flats anyway?
>> Edited by anniesdad on Wednesday 22 December 14:23
anniesdad said:If you're after info about a model, the experts are the guys on Automotive Forums
Found this whilst I was surfing...
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/8139/odgumcbl.html">www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/8139/odgumcbl.html</a>
It's got the ears and everything.
Anyone else know of a 1:18 scale model of their car? I must say though, I've seen better scale models.
Flemke,
Re: Tyres. Would 45 profile run-flats be an option, what with their stiffer sidewalls if you can source them? Or am I talking out of my top hat as the F1 comes with run-flats anyway?
>> Edited by anniesdad on Wednesday 22 December 14:23
The F1 doesn't come wth run-flats, just standard Michelin Rubber (if 235/45 and 315/45's can be called standard)
An interesting proposition though...
Thank you for your comments and suggestions, guys.
The model appears to be a direct copy of the much-publicised presentation car, or "Clinic Model". That car was originally silver, of course, and later resprayed a metallic burgundy. I do not believe that it ever existed in a third colour.
Outwardly it differed from all other prototypes and production cars in its unique external mirrors (which lacked funtioning motors), and its front fog lights were not in any production cars. The Clinic Model also differed in having vents in the front wings just above the headlight housings, different tail-light lenses, and fewer horizontal vents in the rear bumper.
On the tyre front, the requirements for tyres are right size (ideally 335/35/19 for the rear), right construction, right compound, and right speed/load rating. Together these criteria narrow down the options really quickly.
Without knowing it for a fact, I suspect that run-flats are not made in the right size or speed rating. If they did meet those tests, I would wonder about their weight. I should think that they would be fairly heavy.
The experimental wheels should be ready next month. We shall first try out the Bridgestones that are made for the Enzo. Their drawback is that they are 345, which is probably a bit too wide. If so, to have enough clearance they would require a bit of surgery on the back corners of the tub, which I am loath to do. On the other hand, if they did not fit without alterations then we would probably be forced into a 18" wheel, with 345/35s. The problem there is that the outside diameter is rather small.
Because 19" wheels seem to be becoming much more common, I expect that within the next year or so somebody will produce just the right size. I would rather not have to wait that long, however.
Joust is right - it's tough to roll carbon fibre.
The outer edge of the wheel arch comes over and around the tyre corner, so to speak. We could achieve clearance by raising the body so that the wheel-arch edge is above the level of the tyre, but of course that would raise the CoG and tend to ruin everything that we have been trying to achieve in suspension improvement, so I don't think we'll be going there.
I hope that you are right, Dakkon, although I suspect that there just ain't enough room. There is enough room to contain a 345/35/18, but it appears that that tyre's smaller OD is what allows the clearance. An extra half-inch may make the difference
In order to embark on this quixotic project one had to be an optimist, however, so I live in hope.
Cheers.
The problem is that there may not be enough absolute width within the wheelwell. The space available eventually narrows as you move forward from the axle.
This space is adequate for the standard wheel/tyre because that tyre, although it has a fairly big OD, is a 315. This space is also adequate for the factory alternative (on high-downforce-kit cars) of 345/35/18, because this wider tyre has a considerably smaller OD - because of its smaller aspect ratio - and therefore is not impinged on by the narrowing at the front of the wheelwell.
The 345/35/19's combination of maximum width and maximum OD, however, may mean that the inside front corner of the tyre is baulked by the spot within the wheelwell where the tub tapers outward.
>> Edited by flemke on Thursday 23 December 02:26
joust said:
...so may fit without any modifications, or you may just have to roll the arch slightly, maybe, don't know.
Not quite sure how you "roll" a composite body
J
True, my point was really that there are options, and they may just fit without modifications at all. The general post read as though it was not even worth bothering.
Just trying to encourage some happy, positive thoughts.
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