Are modern cars too fast for fun?
Discussion
I think not.
Whilst many people delude themselves that they're capable of hanging the tail out on their [insert supercar here] for several minutes at a time, Tiff stylee, they invariably aren't and such instances are more moments of overcooking followed by "phew, thank God for that!"
This all goes back to the whole issue of magazines like EVO and Autocars' tendencies to present nonchalant mountain pass powerslides with sheer ravine drops to the left as default driving techniques when in fact, there's a world of difference between a quick stab of the anvil at 25mph on a deserted backroad 90 degree-er, provoking a quick snap that's easily reinable back in and a similar effect at 125 on a committed B-route blast where the effect would be altogether more 'Bovingdonesque in an EVO MR,' as per this month's issue...
The supercar simply offers a broader repertoire than the hot hatch, or whatever and in my own little world, the fact that many of my own stallions are exercised on a daily basis to reasonable levels of unleashment,
convinces me accordingly.
The Elise, however, probably does represent the greatest champion against this rationale although it's full raison d'etre is only effectively realised on track, imho, where accusations of being perhaps too underpowered on the road are immediately banished as 3% of The G.Kershaw Factor kicks in and you hail the spirit of the great man Sir Colin.
Bibble.
Whilst many people delude themselves that they're capable of hanging the tail out on their [insert supercar here] for several minutes at a time, Tiff stylee, they invariably aren't and such instances are more moments of overcooking followed by "phew, thank God for that!"
This all goes back to the whole issue of magazines like EVO and Autocars' tendencies to present nonchalant mountain pass powerslides with sheer ravine drops to the left as default driving techniques when in fact, there's a world of difference between a quick stab of the anvil at 25mph on a deserted backroad 90 degree-er, provoking a quick snap that's easily reinable back in and a similar effect at 125 on a committed B-route blast where the effect would be altogether more 'Bovingdonesque in an EVO MR,' as per this month's issue...
The supercar simply offers a broader repertoire than the hot hatch, or whatever and in my own little world, the fact that many of my own stallions are exercised on a daily basis to reasonable levels of unleashment,
convinces me accordingly.
The Elise, however, probably does represent the greatest champion against this rationale although it's full raison d'etre is only effectively realised on track, imho, where accusations of being perhaps too underpowered on the road are immediately banished as 3% of The G.Kershaw Factor kicks in and you hail the spirit of the great man Sir Colin.
Bibble.
I like my copen because it begs to be different it may not be super powerful but since going on a rollng road it produces 83 bhp and 82 lbs torque which is 125 bhp per litre.it is how it puts to use on the road and many people see the bhp and say what a low powered car,but that is where they are wrong it handles very well,i think it is better than the clio 172 which i had before.so last point is looks i like cars for there different looks but there are to many cars which seem to be from the same mould.
Probably the most fun to drive car I've ever owned was a '66 Austin 1100 on cross-ply tyres... You were lucky to get the thing up to the limit, let alone exceed it.
It became awkward finding cross-ply replacements but I refused to sell out and go radial.
You could handbrake it on a 50p piece :-) It used to bounce all over the joint with the gas-sphere suspension.
The 1100 was enormous fun, I'd even venture to say more so than many modern rocket-ships available today, given the state of the roads and the nanny state...
There's a lot to be said for the Jimmy Hunt approach IMHO.
It became awkward finding cross-ply replacements but I refused to sell out and go radial.
You could handbrake it on a 50p piece :-) It used to bounce all over the joint with the gas-sphere suspension.
The 1100 was enormous fun, I'd even venture to say more so than many modern rocket-ships available today, given the state of the roads and the nanny state...
There's a lot to be said for the Jimmy Hunt approach IMHO.
-DeaDLocK- said:
The Elise has too much grip imho. With those old cars you could take a corner sideways nice and slowly and breakaway was much more progressive.
Why is going sideways considered the paragon of fun, and why is it that in conventional terms it seems to be what we should strive for?
I personally would much rather go round a tight corner at a blistering pace with full grip, and a progressive breakaway just to warn me that I'm on the limit. Of course, as far as I'm concerned, the further away the limit the better. If they made a car that defied the laws of physics and never oversteered I'd be the first one in it.
The more grip the better - bring on 'em fat tyres and low centres of gravity.
Once again I guess it's a case of horses for courses.
Though the Elise is pretty well known for sweet sliding with not much provocation...
D
The Elise is actually a complete handful on the limit. It has a low polar moment of inertia and very snappy break away. My new car is far easier on the limit than my Elise was despite being far more of a monster.
I don't know what you drive, but in honesty I believe a properly fast car is simply incompatible with maintenance of a license if used with even modest intent on the road. You just have to flex your right foot for space to fold and the horizon to become the foreground. Its fun, but only rarely.
As to the grip and corner speed thing, again I can't get much joy out of that on the road. There just isn't the opportunity to take corners at that speed without being utterly irresponsible. I'd rather take it far more slowly but right on the limits of the cars ability. Skinny tyres, big slip angles and most of the weight in the front. Much more fun on the road imho. Also the more mechanical grip you have, the faster you are going when it goes wrong, and the faster it happens (smaller slip angles).
Even comparing the Noble to the Elise, I could really feel I'd wrung the neck of the Elise (despite having too much grip imho). Despite being able to go far faster in the Noble I don't get quite that sense of having really pushed it.
I'm not trying to suggest that driving sideways around a mountain pass is something I aspire to do (well not in my own car!), in a modern sports car its far too quick & stupid. Offer me the same pass in my friends old VW and I'd take you up on the offer. I'd be going very slowly but boy would it be fun.
DanH said:Makes perfect sense. Limits in high-performance cars these days are unexploitable legally (if not safely) on the open road. So oversteer becomes one method of having fun.
I don't know what you drive, but in honesty I believe a properly fast car is simply incompatible with maintenance of a license if used with even modest intent on the road. You just have to flex your right foot for space to fold and the horizon to become the foreground. Its fun, but only rarely.
Maybe I'm just biased 'cos I can't oversteer (well, not without driving straight into a hedge anyway) - I drive one of those Fiat 20v Turbo things. A little quick (100mph in c14 secs), but FWD, so oversteer isn't an option.
Makes we want a RWD car now.
D
-DeaDLocK- said:
Maybe I'm just biased 'cos I can't oversteer (well, not without driving straight into a hedge anyway) - I drive one of those Fiat 20v Turbo things. A little quick (100mph in c14 secs), but FWD, so oversteer isn't an option.
Makes we want a RWD car now.
D
I also have a Fiat Coupe 20VT (great car) and would argue that it is possible to oversteer it - although it helps to find a wet roundabout with no one around. I had a bit of fun this way the other night
I also agree though that older cars generally are more fun - there are very few roads where I can even approach what the limit might be in the Fiat on a dry road (I actually have never been brave/foolish enough to find that) other than tight bends taken relatively slowly where it understeers. Of the cars I have had, my Austin A30, despite only 27bhp would power oversteer on its crossplies, an early Mini could be balanced on the throttle easily, and a Triumph Herald was great fun once you learned how the swing axle suspension could bite and drove acordingly.
All great fun, but so is the sheer grunt of the Fiat.
I hope no polices read this but today I managed to get the tail of the TR6 "out" at every junction and roundabout between here and the other bit of Bristol I was going to. I seriously doubt I went over 35 at any point, but just so easy to turn-in and boot it out.
Couldn't do that in my Audis. They're fun too, but in a different way.
Couldn't do that in my Audis. They're fun too, but in a different way.
Not sure I conveyed myself very well, but part of what I mean is that with these skinny tired old cars you didn't have to provoke them, they just drifted out very progressively without a massive lift etc. I took my liz on a few drift days and you really had to play around with weight transfer to get it sideways, then it was fairly hard to balance and even harder to prolong a slide.
Most fun car I've driven on the road is a Talbot Sunbeam TI.
Accelerating quick in a straight soon loses its novelty and the TVRs were going too quickly by the time they started losing traction to be fun.
On a motorway my current Merc is fastest of the lot and undoubtedly the least fun of all.
Accelerating quick in a straight soon loses its novelty and the TVRs were going too quickly by the time they started losing traction to be fun.
On a motorway my current Merc is fastest of the lot and undoubtedly the least fun of all.
los angeles said:
Today's powerful open-topped sports cars are best driven at a reasonable speed. Anything beyond that becomes unbearable in noise, wind buffeting, and traffic hazards. The irony is, there's more fun to be had driving a medium powered sports car fast, than a powerful one slow. Which is why almost a million folk bought an MX5/Eunos/Miata.
The MX5/Miata crowd have never driven a Cobra, a replica albeit, through France in the sun to Le Mans. They would then see that there is lots more fun to be had in a powerful open topped car driven at any speed compared to a medium powered car driven fast.......
You dont get free beer if you drive an MX5..........
Cheers,
Tony
los angeles said:
Today's powerful open-topped sports cars are best driven at a reasonable speed. Anything beyond that becomes unbearable in noise, wind buffeting, and traffic hazards. The irony is, there's more fun to be had driving a medium powered sports car fast, than a powerful one slow. Which is why almost a million folk bought an MX5/Eunos/Miata.
Perhaps, but thats not why people bought them
Everyone always wants more power!There is a certain lightly policed mountain road (also a stage of the Classic Adelaide Rally) where I test everycar I can. For sheer fun factor the best car was a 1.6L Mk2 Escort, completely stock, well ok it had tired factory sports suspension and 13x5.5 wheels with some crappy nameless tires on it. 2.0L escort was also fun, almost too fast though. 2.0L Mk2 cortina same problem and also it had crappy steering and the fear of shovelling it into a rock face or going off the side. Second place for sheer fun must go to a 1.0L 3 cylinder daiahtsu G11 charade! you could through that baby down the road and feel like you where really flying without even exceeding the 80km/h speed limit! suprising good steering and excellent gearshift (for an econobox) crap brakes though (not that they were needed much )
Least fun car? Bmw e28 528i Motorsport, it was just too damn competant, even at twice the speed limit it was only just reaching its limits, and was well past mine. Was a great sideways machine on a wet road, but then so was an escort
I also remember a ride at over 200km/h in a Porker 993 down a similar road, we could have been going 70km/h if the scenery wasn't going past so quickly.
) Least fun car? Bmw e28 528i Motorsport, it was just too damn competant, even at twice the speed limit it was only just reaching its limits, and was well past mine. Was a great sideways machine on a wet road, but then so was an escort
I also remember a ride at over 200km/h in a Porker 993 down a similar road, we could have been going 70km/h if the scenery wasn't going past so quickly.
If you're looking to inject some interest in driving a modern sports monster at legal speeds go import some Japanese tyres and wait until it rains (or there's a heavy dew). Scary stuff but legal speeds and it gets the adrenaline flowing.
I've found the limits of mine a few times while on the Jap rubber but now it's on decent tyres it's not somewhere I choose to go on the roads - not with my skill levels! If I'm going deliberately near any limits it's on a air field training/track day or somewhere like Silverstone with big runoffs!
I do get a lot of pleasure at hard accelleration (up to the speed limit of course!) and fast cornering but unless something really unexpected happens (or I screw up badly) I wouldn't expect to be at the car's handling limits.
I've found the limits of mine a few times while on the Jap rubber but now it's on decent tyres it's not somewhere I choose to go on the roads - not with my skill levels! If I'm going deliberately near any limits it's on a air field training/track day or somewhere like Silverstone with big runoffs!
I do get a lot of pleasure at hard accelleration (up to the speed limit of course!) and fast cornering but unless something really unexpected happens (or I screw up badly) I wouldn't expect to be at the car's handling limits.
Road_Terrorist said:
For sheer fun factor the best car was a 1.6L Mk2 Escort, .....
.... Was a great sideways machine on a wet road, but then so was an escort
I learned to drive in a Mk1 Cortina GT which was fun in its day. Had a couple of Minis that were great. Being so narrow most roads looked very wide and so slightly wrong lines on country roads could be compensated.
But the most fun came from Mk1 Escorts. I fondly remember a 1300GT. Not perfect mechanically by any means until after I had rebuilt the engine and changed most of the suspension and the paint was dreadful. But great fun to drive.
My job for a couple of years involved many miles in Escort vans. Even on radial tyres they were easy to drive and tail out (slightly) was the normal style on most roundabouts and many slow to medium bends. Quite precise steering so getting a good line was easy as well. I usually left the rear tyres pumped up for max load carrying - so getting the rear active was not too difficult despite only 1300cc.
For some reason the Fords of that era, all RWD of course) were vehicles I felt completely at home with as soon as I sat in them (though less so the Mk1 Granadas and the 3ltr Capris felt homely until the road was damp or you gave the brakes something useful to do). It has been a less commonly felt experience with more recent vehicles - though I have not driven any Fords for a while.
2.5ltr V6 Twin rear wheel LWB Transit was fun as well - when you worked out how the rear was going to hop (rather than slide) in dry conditions.
I think those days are gone forever for most people. Car technology reduces the possibility (and makes the 'skill' redundant?) and opportunity, or at least a regular opportunity on the roads with a good degree of safety built in, is non-existent in most of the UK. And frowned upon of course, with penalties likely to be much heavier punishment than in days gone by.
I guess I was lucky in my learning to drive - started off on an over-assisted, underpowered, cramped little MK2 Punto that I literally couldn't drive properly. My driving instructor at the time said 'you're a good driver, but you're never going to pass your test in this car - it's just not suited to you'.
Ever since, I've known I appreciate, where possible, a lack of assistance and plenty of space. Took my test in a Fiat Bravo after some lessons in a thrashed ex-rally Seat Ibiza and a bit of off-roading in an SIII Landy.
When learning to drive, people should be encouraged to drive as many types of car as possible, to learn what suits them, rather than starting with an over-assisted Eurobox and sticking with them religiously for the rest of their lives.
Ever since, I've known I appreciate, where possible, a lack of assistance and plenty of space. Took my test in a Fiat Bravo after some lessons in a thrashed ex-rally Seat Ibiza and a bit of off-roading in an SIII Landy.
When learning to drive, people should be encouraged to drive as many types of car as possible, to learn what suits them, rather than starting with an over-assisted Eurobox and sticking with them religiously for the rest of their lives.
v8thunder said:
I wondered this, mainly because I drive a 1.2-litre Fiat Punto that's typically Italian fun in the twisties, but hopeless on the motorway.
My daughter has a 1.2 8v Punto. Quite nippy and responsive up to about 50. Could be much worse on Motorways. Get 2 or 4 people on board and you notice a big difference but not the same sort of difference that would have been evident with cars of a similar engine size 15 or 20 years ago. And it is also quite a large car with a lot of interior space, relatively speaking.
I had one as a hire car for a week in Eire last year. It was OK and sipped petrol. (All the windows misted up quickly in the cold and damp weather though.) But neither of them give/gave me a feeling of being 'at one' with them. But then that's not really the market they are aimed at - despite the advertising they used to run. Hence the low prices, large numbers on the road and rather poor dealer service.
The upside is that you get a low cost, spacious (5 door in our case and seats 5 adults very adequately), economical, low insurance (a clincher for a young driver) and adequate vehicle that is in truth much better than its equivalents of a generation ago in PC days (Pre-Cupholder).
Difficult to feel part of it though. It just doesn't 'connect' for me.
The thing is, this is a car enthusiasts site, so the opinions you get will be a little biased. I'm sure many people buy a car / or get a company car based on their requirements, not the fact it sits all day long at 120mph in relative comfort.
Take my mother. She's contented with a Citroen something-or-other, little car. Great for the shops. Cramped inside. I suggested the other day she replace it with a Range Rover. I might as well have been talking to myself.
Take my mother. She's contented with a Citroen something-or-other, little car. Great for the shops. Cramped inside. I suggested the other day she replace it with a Range Rover. I might as well have been talking to myself.
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