RE: Government firms up road charging plans
Discussion
I've recently been working on GPS device tracking, and this would be a huge technological achievement to make it work on a national scale.
So no chance of that happening then!
But it is almost guaranteed that some outsourcing consultancy will get millions of pounds to try and do it.
That is disregarding the privacy issues, the logistical issues, the personal and financial implications, the unknown costs of driving and general point that congestion could surely be addressed by some means other than charging people more and more...
If the quoted figures of reducing traffic at peak times by only 4% are realistic targets, then there must be much simpler measures to deal with that.
So no chance of that happening then!
But it is almost guaranteed that some outsourcing consultancy will get millions of pounds to try and do it.
That is disregarding the privacy issues, the logistical issues, the personal and financial implications, the unknown costs of driving and general point that congestion could surely be addressed by some means other than charging people more and more...
If the quoted figures of reducing traffic at peak times by only 4% are realistic targets, then there must be much simpler measures to deal with that.
None of us can disagree with need to reduce polution levels and conjestion, but we all have to agree that this is just another way of increasing taxation.
The problem with this lot, is that they like spending our money on their political ideas. There is an analogy, the bigger the room, the more you put in it. It is the same with taxation. The more you tax, the more you spend, and commit to spending.
What really bothers me, is there is no accounability, and no mechanism for joe public to really influence this type of policy, short of rioting.
I also totally agree with the civil liberty questions raised. The technical aspects of this proposal should be straightforward (although there will be plenty of scope for incompetence, back handers, and fraud), and if the road charging is done at fair rate, then the idea is not so daft, although the road charging rate will undoubtedly creep up when the old piggy bank is getting a bit empty. But civil liberty will be gone, so you might as well be in prison, which is probably where you`ll end up if you riot...so nothing lost!
Surely the best way forward for this country, is for its citizens to prosper and to creat wealth, with fair taxation levels to provide public services at the level required to maintain a good standard of living for the public.
Oh yes, and with regard to pollution, what about the rest of the worlds contribution!
The problem with this lot, is that they like spending our money on their political ideas. There is an analogy, the bigger the room, the more you put in it. It is the same with taxation. The more you tax, the more you spend, and commit to spending.
What really bothers me, is there is no accounability, and no mechanism for joe public to really influence this type of policy, short of rioting.
I also totally agree with the civil liberty questions raised. The technical aspects of this proposal should be straightforward (although there will be plenty of scope for incompetence, back handers, and fraud), and if the road charging is done at fair rate, then the idea is not so daft, although the road charging rate will undoubtedly creep up when the old piggy bank is getting a bit empty. But civil liberty will be gone, so you might as well be in prison, which is probably where you`ll end up if you riot...so nothing lost!
Surely the best way forward for this country, is for its citizens to prosper and to creat wealth, with fair taxation levels to provide public services at the level required to maintain a good standard of living for the public.
Oh yes, and with regard to pollution, what about the rest of the worlds contribution!
www.number-10.gov.uk/output/page821.asp
Suggest everybody tells To$$er Tone what they think of this latest charade.
Suggest everybody tells To$$er Tone what they think of this latest charade.
neil_c said:
Surely getting all the untaxed, uninsured and unmot'd cars off the road would reduce congestion too. Of course this costs money rather than generating it. I'd never make it as a Labour MP.
If this road charging goes ahead there will be a lot more of these.
On the bright side at least we all have 10 years to move to a decent country, loads of time to learn a new language etc.
>> Edited by gf350 on Monday 6th June 13:58
CTE said:
What really bothers me, is there is no accounability, and no mechanism for joe public to really influence this type of policy, short of rioting.
True, there is little accountability, because TB and his party run the country despite only receiving the support of 22% of the electorate...
Proportional representation would scare the cr*p out of The Cabinet, they would have to write a manifesto that people would vote for.
I think its fair to assume all the main parties manifestos would become a lot more populist if 1st past the post was binned.
www.independent.co.uk/cfd/democracy.jsp
Why is we have to wait five years to vote them out?
If they can have GPS tracking, why not internet voting? Obvious security concerns aside there is internet access in public libraries, schools, just about everywhere these days and it would stop these loony ideas getting through.
Government should get 50% of the vote and the public the other 50%.
Failing that a 10-15 year implementation means that there's at least 2 more chances to get rid of any party that thinks this is a good idea.
Alternatively we as PH'ers could bid for the contract to deliver these black boxes thus funding this site for infinitum and ensuring it doesn't work.
If they can have GPS tracking, why not internet voting? Obvious security concerns aside there is internet access in public libraries, schools, just about everywhere these days and it would stop these loony ideas getting through.
Government should get 50% of the vote and the public the other 50%.
Failing that a 10-15 year implementation means that there's at least 2 more chances to get rid of any party that thinks this is a good idea.
Alternatively we as PH'ers could bid for the contract to deliver these black boxes thus funding this site for infinitum and ensuring it doesn't work.
Agreed on electoral reform, but it's just not going to happen as it's reliant on the party in power implementing it...and the party in power got there through 1st past the post.
Especially now - 36%!!! With Proportional Representation they couldn't have run a tap on that, let alone a country!!!
>> Edited by havoc on Monday 6th June 14:09
Especially now - 36%!!! With Proportional Representation they couldn't have run a tap on that, let alone a country!!!
Not Charlton Heston said:
They want my car keys?!? They can have them when they prise them from my cold dead hands!!!
>> Edited by havoc on Monday 6th June 14:09
Not wishing to start another thread, so felt this was as good a place as any to rant...
What hope is there, when retards like the monkey sat next to me says,
"I think the pay per mile idea is great, I'm all for it...I live in north London, and get the train to work, so why should I care. And while they're at it, they should raise the congestion charge too....especially for 4x4s"
I'm sure much of it is just to wind me up, as I like to have a decent car as well as a company car, while he got Mini (BMW) Cooper S, yet never ever goes above a limit, because "that's the law". Loves nothing more than to plug numbers into his calculator to smile at the small depreciation he'll suffer on the Mini. Get out and get a life FFS!!!!
Slowly building up to an explosion sat here at my desk.
LB
What hope is there, when retards like the monkey sat next to me says,
"I think the pay per mile idea is great, I'm all for it...I live in north London, and get the train to work, so why should I care. And while they're at it, they should raise the congestion charge too....especially for 4x4s"
I'm sure much of it is just to wind me up, as I like to have a decent car as well as a company car, while he got Mini (BMW) Cooper S, yet never ever goes above a limit, because "that's the law". Loves nothing more than to plug numbers into his calculator to smile at the small depreciation he'll suffer on the Mini. Get out and get a life FFS!!!!
Slowly building up to an explosion sat here at my desk.
LB
luca brazzi said:
What hope is there, when retards like the monkey sat next to me says,
"I think the pay per mile idea is great, I'm all for it...I live in north London, and get the train to work, so why should I care. And while they're at it, they should raise the congestion charge too....especially for 4x4s"
......
Slowly building up to an explosion sat here at my desk.
LB
Hi Luca,
Just tell the retard that you heard that the Trains, Underground and Buses are all on strike tomorrow - "Enjoy the walk to work you to$$er".
Failing that - punch the tw@t.
BTW - just emailed the latest recording of my exhaust mod to you for your website. You could always play that to him at full belt, coronary anyone?
Simon
>> Edited by sgrimshaw cause I didn't read the full post. He has a Mini Cooper S .... all clear now. Ignore him, just
ing jealous of your good taste. Probably can't afford to insure a TVR yet alone buy one! >> Edited by sgrimshaw on Monday 6th June 14:30
It strikes me very much that the government are essentially using this massive invasion of civil liberties to turn private cars into public transport.
Think about it - yes, you bought the car, but you will essentially have to 'lease' its useage from them. And I bet they confiscate it if you refuse to pay.
Under this scheme you will essentially 'own' a self-drive taxi. You get in, you drive around clocking up a fare, then when you stop the governments says "that'll be £xx please".
What's next, another black box that disperses New Labour's take on 'the knowledge' in an irritating voice as you drive along?
Think about it - yes, you bought the car, but you will essentially have to 'lease' its useage from them. And I bet they confiscate it if you refuse to pay.
Under this scheme you will essentially 'own' a self-drive taxi. You get in, you drive around clocking up a fare, then when you stop the governments says "that'll be £xx please".
What's next, another black box that disperses New Labour's take on 'the knowledge' in an irritating voice as you drive along?
I want to simply say “it won’t work” and then stop fretting, but, if it doesn’t work straight away, the government will throw loads of (our) money at it. Then, if it really fails we’ll have a massive bill to pay, which could only be recovered in taxes …and this is the best-case scenario.
I love living in the UK, for many reasons, but if this hair brain scheme ever makes it to fruition, I will give serious thought to emigrating. This may appear as yet another empty rant, but I truly mean it. I could not imagine living in a country that would do this to its citizens. I have never joined any mass demonstration in my life – supported them morally, yes, but never joined one. This is different. It is sinister, intrusive and, in my opinion, the government is very naïve, if they think that the British public will just roll over on this. NEVER!
I love living in the UK, for many reasons, but if this hair brain scheme ever makes it to fruition, I will give serious thought to emigrating. This may appear as yet another empty rant, but I truly mean it. I could not imagine living in a country that would do this to its citizens. I have never joined any mass demonstration in my life – supported them morally, yes, but never joined one. This is different. It is sinister, intrusive and, in my opinion, the government is very naïve, if they think that the British public will just roll over on this. NEVER!
This just doesn’t make logistical sense to me…
How are they gonna decide when you are on a congested road?
Is it a fixed system ie road ‘x’ is £1.00 08:00-10:00 & 16:00-18:00, £0.80 Saturdays and £0.20 all other times?
Who the hell is going to decide that (and how?) for thousands of miles of roads?
And how will you know in advance of a jouney? Will there be a system for route planning and pricing? What happens if you are diverted by roadworks etc? Can you be charged money for something you cannot know the price of in advance?
And will the charge be reviewed and lowered when the congestion drops by a magical 4% say, and moves onto a previously free-moving parallel road? (which then sees it’s price increased)
Another thought – will CROSSING a high congestion/price road at a junction see you charged?
EG ‘cos of where I work I drive across town, rather than into it – but two roads I cross at traffic light controlled crossroads are very busy. Now in theory they are waiting at those lights for me to cross… so am I adding to the congestion even though I am on a free moving road?
What happens if you PARK on a congested/high price road? Does the system only work when your engine is running? If so what happens if you hit congestion and turn your engine off? (Or the black box thinks you have turned your engine off?
)
And how long before the charging is used for other reasons than congestion – ie discourage use of a particular (free moving) rat run, or past a beauty spot, etc
All the above is assuming it’s not some dynamic system working on your position and average speed (‘cos that throws up even more problems)
So I am not going to worry about it (yet)
How are they gonna decide when you are on a congested road?
Is it a fixed system ie road ‘x’ is £1.00 08:00-10:00 & 16:00-18:00, £0.80 Saturdays and £0.20 all other times?
Who the hell is going to decide that (and how?) for thousands of miles of roads?
And how will you know in advance of a jouney? Will there be a system for route planning and pricing? What happens if you are diverted by roadworks etc? Can you be charged money for something you cannot know the price of in advance?
And will the charge be reviewed and lowered when the congestion drops by a magical 4% say, and moves onto a previously free-moving parallel road? (which then sees it’s price increased)
Another thought – will CROSSING a high congestion/price road at a junction see you charged?
EG ‘cos of where I work I drive across town, rather than into it – but two roads I cross at traffic light controlled crossroads are very busy. Now in theory they are waiting at those lights for me to cross… so am I adding to the congestion even though I am on a free moving road?
What happens if you PARK on a congested/high price road? Does the system only work when your engine is running? If so what happens if you hit congestion and turn your engine off? (Or the black box thinks you have turned your engine off?
) And how long before the charging is used for other reasons than congestion – ie discourage use of a particular (free moving) rat run, or past a beauty spot, etc
All the above is assuming it’s not some dynamic system working on your position and average speed (‘cos that throws up even more problems)
So I am not going to worry about it (yet)
This gov't would tax having a cr@p if they could (this will probably be announced next week)
Do they honestly think that people choose to sit in stationary traffic?? If the robbing so and so's had invested a decent amount of the huge amounts of tax they squeeze from motorists into transport related areas things might not be this bad anyway.
I wonder if this also has anything to do with the fact that cars are getting ever more fuel efficient and the public have had about enough of fuel duty increases (at TB knows it). Could this be a way of more easily controlling the amount of money they can extort from motorists going forward?
The more I think about the stranger it seems... assuming fuel duty is scrapped or seriously reduced it will cost little more to run a nice big gas guzzler than a poxy small engined town car. Talk about mixed messages.....
I think I'll emmigrate, this country gets worse every week.
Do they honestly think that people choose to sit in stationary traffic?? If the robbing so and so's had invested a decent amount of the huge amounts of tax they squeeze from motorists into transport related areas things might not be this bad anyway.
I wonder if this also has anything to do with the fact that cars are getting ever more fuel efficient and the public have had about enough of fuel duty increases (at TB knows it). Could this be a way of more easily controlling the amount of money they can extort from motorists going forward?
The more I think about the stranger it seems... assuming fuel duty is scrapped or seriously reduced it will cost little more to run a nice big gas guzzler than a poxy small engined town car. Talk about mixed messages.....
I think I'll emmigrate, this country gets worse every week.
Imagine you order a pizza. Then according to the hour you order it will have a different price because ALL the businesses will charge the road tax onto the customer.
Inflation will explode.
Then you are driving in an empty road and then you are stuck in a congested area: you did NOT choose it but you will be charged a fortune anyway.
Foreigners will be paying the full petrol tax so no problem there.
Speeding tickets will be automatically delivered at home: these labour b......s will tell you that with this technology there will be no need for speed cameras any longer...
Politicians will make YOU pay for their trips
At the beginning will be a pay-as-you go then another tosser will think "wait a minute. Being stuck in a traffic jam with a Mini or a Ferrari it is not fair!"
then they will come up with pay-as-you-go-AND-AS-YOU-EARN
if you have a 10 car fleet then it is ok - you save £1,650 pounds thank you very much.
They do not invest in roads, they make them more difficult to use with bottlenecks, they will force you out of your car into smelly, slow, stinky buses
We pay already 1.4£ per mile each day using the Tube to go to work: what about making the Tube FREE for those working and make pay pensioners? This is a tax on those working and generating wealth for the Inland Revenue. Why I cannot deduct Tube tickets in my tax declaration for a start?
More important: you freedom to ENJOY driving when you want where you want will be taken away from you. Yes, people must drive to go to work but if you want to have simply FUN driving then this goverment, this bureaucrats with too much time on their hands, with the brain polluted by hatred towards you - the middle class - will kill any little corner of your freedom.
Or maybe it can be all bullshit like the Euro: Labour used and Euro as a way to make people angry and focused on this issue while they were doing something else. It was a decoy. It could well be it is the new decoy this road scheme: or maybe not.
One thing is certain: they must be stopped, legally, politically wiped out. This society based on a socialism from a PM buying a 3.4 million pounds home and sending his children in the best schools and not telling you if MMR applies to his new born.
No, you cannot choose to drive, you cannot choose where to send your children to school (it is not politically correct), you have to get the MMR even if you do not want. You are asked to do sacrifices from people laughing at you, hating you.
Politicians are all a bunch of failures: if they were good in something they would do it, instead of running (and ruining) your lives.
The best government is the one that it is less intrusive in our lives but this simple truth does not work for them: control is power and then they can turn the pressure on and off from you at their will.
They will not give up that otherwise their reason-d'etre will merely cease to exist.
'naff said
Aston67
Inflation will explode.
Then you are driving in an empty road and then you are stuck in a congested area: you did NOT choose it but you will be charged a fortune anyway.
Foreigners will be paying the full petrol tax so no problem there.
Speeding tickets will be automatically delivered at home: these labour b......s will tell you that with this technology there will be no need for speed cameras any longer...
Politicians will make YOU pay for their trips
At the beginning will be a pay-as-you go then another tosser will think "wait a minute. Being stuck in a traffic jam with a Mini or a Ferrari it is not fair!"
then they will come up with pay-as-you-go-AND-AS-YOU-EARN
if you have a 10 car fleet then it is ok - you save £1,650 pounds thank you very much.
They do not invest in roads, they make them more difficult to use with bottlenecks, they will force you out of your car into smelly, slow, stinky buses
We pay already 1.4£ per mile each day using the Tube to go to work: what about making the Tube FREE for those working and make pay pensioners? This is a tax on those working and generating wealth for the Inland Revenue. Why I cannot deduct Tube tickets in my tax declaration for a start?
More important: you freedom to ENJOY driving when you want where you want will be taken away from you. Yes, people must drive to go to work but if you want to have simply FUN driving then this goverment, this bureaucrats with too much time on their hands, with the brain polluted by hatred towards you - the middle class - will kill any little corner of your freedom.
Or maybe it can be all bullshit like the Euro: Labour used and Euro as a way to make people angry and focused on this issue while they were doing something else. It was a decoy. It could well be it is the new decoy this road scheme: or maybe not.
One thing is certain: they must be stopped, legally, politically wiped out. This society based on a socialism from a PM buying a 3.4 million pounds home and sending his children in the best schools and not telling you if MMR applies to his new born.
No, you cannot choose to drive, you cannot choose where to send your children to school (it is not politically correct), you have to get the MMR even if you do not want. You are asked to do sacrifices from people laughing at you, hating you.
Politicians are all a bunch of failures: if they were good in something they would do it, instead of running (and ruining) your lives.
The best government is the one that it is less intrusive in our lives but this simple truth does not work for them: control is power and then they can turn the pressure on and off from you at their will.
They will not give up that otherwise their reason-d'etre will merely cease to exist.
'naff said
Aston67
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