Are cars over-tyred today?
Discussion
900T-R said:
Zod said:
I have a car with 275s on the back and another with 285s. Both will come unstuck easily with a bit of pressure from the right foot.
Or hitting standing water whilst going in a straight line on the motorway. 
I think it's a case that to get modern cars with 'reasonable' performance in a mess you have to be going fast - too fast.
My Cayman S is virtualy unshakable on the road because you simply can't use the full potential without endangering yourself or someone else.
On track, however, it's a completely different ball game - I can happily get the car sliding about (if I wish, of course) because it's being operated towards the edge of it's performance.
My Cayman S is virtualy unshakable on the road because you simply can't use the full potential without endangering yourself or someone else.
On track, however, it's a completely different ball game - I can happily get the car sliding about (if I wish, of course) because it's being operated towards the edge of it's performance.
Yes, but not just the size but also the profile. Generally speaking, higher profiled tyres have a much wider threshold between gripping and not gripping. The end result is that most numbnuts can feel through the steering when a tyre is beginning to break traction. Those more skilled can have huge fun playing in this threshold.
The opposite is true of low-profile tyres in that they tend to have a much narrower threshold meaning that the unskilled find their cars gripping fine one second and the next they are in terminal understeer or going backwards up a tree.
The opposite is true of low-profile tyres in that they tend to have a much narrower threshold meaning that the unskilled find their cars gripping fine one second and the next they are in terminal understeer or going backwards up a tree.
Asterix said:
I think it's a case that to get modern cars with 'reasonable' performance in a mess you have to be going fast - too fast.
My Cayman S is virtualy unshakable on the road because you simply can't use the full potential without endangering yourself or someone else.
On track, however, it's a completely different ball game - I can happily get the car sliding about (if I wish, of course) because it's being operated towards the edge of it's performance.
Echo these thoughts entirely, and am moving to an oft-recommended car which will provide fun at much lower velocities.My Cayman S is virtualy unshakable on the road because you simply can't use the full potential without endangering yourself or someone else.
On track, however, it's a completely different ball game - I can happily get the car sliding about (if I wish, of course) because it's being operated towards the edge of it's performance.
Bonefish Blues said:
Asterix said:
I think it's a case that to get modern cars with 'reasonable' performance in a mess you have to be going fast - too fast.
My Cayman S is virtualy unshakable on the road because you simply can't use the full potential without endangering yourself or someone else.
On track, however, it's a completely different ball game - I can happily get the car sliding about (if I wish, of course) because it's being operated towards the edge of it's performance.
Echo these thoughts entirely, and am moving to an oft-recommended car which will provide fun at much lower velocities.My Cayman S is virtualy unshakable on the road because you simply can't use the full potential without endangering yourself or someone else.
On track, however, it's a completely different ball game - I can happily get the car sliding about (if I wish, of course) because it's being operated towards the edge of it's performance.
Asterix said:
Bonefish Blues said:
Asterix said:
I think it's a case that to get modern cars with 'reasonable' performance in a mess you have to be going fast - too fast.
My Cayman S is virtualy unshakable on the road because you simply can't use the full potential without endangering yourself or someone else.
On track, however, it's a completely different ball game - I can happily get the car sliding about (if I wish, of course) because it's being operated towards the edge of it's performance.
Echo these thoughts entirely, and am moving to an oft-recommended car which will provide fun at much lower velocities.My Cayman S is virtualy unshakable on the road because you simply can't use the full potential without endangering yourself or someone else.
On track, however, it's a completely different ball game - I can happily get the car sliding about (if I wish, of course) because it's being operated towards the edge of it's performance.
In partnership with a Toyota Pistonleper hybrid!
otolith said:
Interesting topic - seems a lot of people feel they have too much grip. So who has actually changed their wheels and tyres for narrower versions? Or are you all running really cheap LingLongDarkHorse teflon specials?
I do have kingstars on the back of the MX5, most amusing in the wet! I didn't buy them deliberately but they were on the wheels I bought second-hand (along with a pair of GT Radials which I've worn out and replaced). I'm sticking with 'touring' rather than 'sports' tyres on it though for more playfulness and longer tyre life.
The Legacy is heavier and much faster so I use better rubber on that. I've never had it let go (at either end) on a sealed road, you'd have to be a bit too committed for public roads to do that IMO.
Edited by GravelBen on Thursday 15th October 11:58
GravelBen said:
I do have kingstars on the back of the MX5, most amusing in the wet!
By amusing you mean "Holy good God I'm going to crash" when you hit the slightest bit of a manhole cover on a wet road. 
I had Kingstars on an Astra, very nearly put it over the central armco at 25mph on a wet sweeping bend on to a bridge. Bloody dealer fit deathtraps.
Turned left immediately after regaining control, in to the nearest tyre fitter and got a pair of real tyres fitted.
otolith said:
Interesting topic - seems a lot of people feel they have too much grip. So who has actually changed their wheels and tyres for narrower versions? Or are you all running really cheap LingLongDarkHorse teflon specials?
I changed the wheels/tyres on my Audi from 235/45/17 to 215/55/16. There was no noticeable difference in grip, but the ride quality is much better, which is why I did it.I wouldn't say the Kingstars are quite that bad when driving smoothly, they've only let go unexpectedly on me once and that was a greasy roundabout on a heavy traffic bypass so may have been a diesel patch or something. Was still recoverable, and generally the lack of wet traction is predictable/progressive, in the dry they're ok.
Very easily provoked with the right foot though, it does take 'special' tyres to let you hold a car on the lock-stops (2nd gear 30-40mph) with 115bhp!
The GT Radials were much less predictable, there was a bit of guesswork involved as to whether they'd grip or slip. Still had a reasonable amount of tread left when I got rid of them but had gone so far out of round I thought a wheel bearing was on the way out, and starting to delaminate was the final straw.
Just goes to show quality of tyres is much more important than width, or tread depth for that matter.
Edited by GravelBen on Thursday 15th October 13:34
otolith said:
Interesting topic - seems a lot of people feel they have too much grip. So who has actually changed their wheels and tyres for narrower versions? Or are you all running really cheap LingLongDarkHorse teflon specials?
Surely the problem is that consistent performance, good feedback and progressive breakaway tend to be the traits of good quality tyres. Switching to a set of Chiang Ching Tyre Corporation Ladyboy Excels may kill more than just the grip.Thus - surely it is better to NOT put 24" wheels on a medium sized hatchback.
Smaller, good quality tyres will give good grip, progressive breakawy and excellent ride quality.
As opposed to large wheels which - give excellent grip on a new car, but as soon as they are replaced for Linglongs (because the factory Michelins are £200 ea) the grip and control is screwed.
Smaller, good quality tyres will give good grip, progressive breakawy and excellent ride quality.
As opposed to large wheels which - give excellent grip on a new car, but as soon as they are replaced for Linglongs (because the factory Michelins are £200 ea) the grip and control is screwed.
Don said:
OK. Are modern cars over-tyred. i.e. Do they have too much grip?
Answer: No. They can't have too much grip. Have you seen how crap at driving most people are? These tyres are saving their lives on a daily basis! OF COURSE extra grip is a good thing. Whilst it may spoil cornering fun for those with the inclination it also provides vastly superior braking performance. Coupled with ABS this probably saves more lives than all the other road safety innovations combined.
As to the cost of the rubber? Well, hell. If it saves your life isn't it worth it? And competition is now making these wider, lower profile tyres far cheaper than they were ten years ago. When I first bought a full set of new boots for my Boxster it cost nearly a grand. These days I can do it for £500 and still get a decent tyre - if not top-of-the-line Michelins.
If you want to slide a car around then go to a drift day and get to enjoy it properly...
I disagree with most of that, but not all. Overspeccing the tyres undoubtedly has easily measurable improvements in braking performance - assuming the tyre quality is highly specced, not just the tyre size. However, wider tyres aquaplane easier, so I'm not convinced that oversized tyres are saving lives. They might be safer in the dry, they can be more dangerous in the wet. The real advances, IMO, are in the quality of the tyre, not the changes in size.Answer: No. They can't have too much grip. Have you seen how crap at driving most people are? These tyres are saving their lives on a daily basis! OF COURSE extra grip is a good thing. Whilst it may spoil cornering fun for those with the inclination it also provides vastly superior braking performance. Coupled with ABS this probably saves more lives than all the other road safety innovations combined.
As to the cost of the rubber? Well, hell. If it saves your life isn't it worth it? And competition is now making these wider, lower profile tyres far cheaper than they were ten years ago. When I first bought a full set of new boots for my Boxster it cost nearly a grand. These days I can do it for £500 and still get a decent tyre - if not top-of-the-line Michelins.
If you want to slide a car around then go to a drift day and get to enjoy it properly...
To counter your point about the cost, I'd say that if £500 is guaranteed to save my life, i.e. I definitely live if I spend it, I definitely die if I don't, then yeah, bargain. Definitely worth it. If £500 buys assurance in the tiny, quite probably immeasurable, possibility I might on the off chance happen across a situation which I'd survive on 235/35/19s but not on 195/50/17s then no, I'd rather keep the money and spend it on something interesting - like the drift course you mentioned - and also have a more pleasurable drive there and back too.
On topic, yes, I agree tyre and wheel sizes are going a bit overboard at the moment.
Edited by Alfanatic on Thursday 15th October 20:29
Tyre technology is combatting aquaplaning on wider tyres, though. Better tread patterns that move water throughout their lives (some like goodyear Optigrip change as they wear), and multi-compound rubbers (Bridgestone RE720, Michelin Exalto and again the Optigrip) which when they wear show a softer compund that works better in the wet to offset the loss of thread depth.
Personally I've found 225 to be a pretty good width, it's a good compromise between aquaplaning and dry weather grip. Anything more is unrequired IMHO unless you're running a bazillion horsepower.
Personally I've found 225 to be a pretty good width, it's a good compromise between aquaplaning and dry weather grip. Anything more is unrequired IMHO unless you're running a bazillion horsepower.
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