Re: Peugeot: GTi is RIP
Discussion
number2301 said:
mustard tab said:
number2301 said:
The marketing people at Peugeot must be bonkers, premium sports coupes? With a Peugeot badge on the front?
would that be the same as the idea of a small fast stylish SEAT or a robust durable well equiped and popular Skoda, or an up market Toyota to compare with a Mercedes.....
k up they've been for the past decade?TBH the examples i gave above were VW owned and used to attack markets in a different way and i dont suppose that the majority of the buying public were aware they were driving a golf or polo in a different set of clothes. As far as Toyota were concerned they marketed under a new name to distance themselves from the mainstream Avensis and Corrola stigma for that market. the only model that Peugeot can base themselves on IMO is Audi, as they have entered the supercar market with the R8 and i believe Peugeot want to move in the same way, maybe not to compete with the likes of the R8 but certainly Audi and BMW. VAG had the benefit of attacking different markets with different names, Audi took on Ferrari and Porsche with a solid base of perceived quality, quite how Peugeot will pull off moving up market with their current standing, in the UK at least, remains to be seen. I wish them luck, they're gonna need it.
hang on hang on hang on! 
in continental europe they binned it off ages ago (and then posibly brought it back again).
the S15 and RC models etc.
RC obviously had a hint of the MeRdes to it in the UK..!
it doesn't matter what it's called. what matters is that they have BEEN cr4p drivers cars. the focus can be named after Always and it doesn;t matter.
in the 80s peugeot could have got away with calling it the 205AnuSol
in continental europe they binned it off ages ago (and then posibly brought it back again).
the S15 and RC models etc.
RC obviously had a hint of the MeRdes to it in the UK..!
it doesn't matter what it's called. what matters is that they have BEEN cr4p drivers cars. the focus can be named after Always and it doesn;t matter.
in the 80s peugeot could have got away with calling it the 205AnuSol
Edited by briSk on Tuesday 10th November 15:18
This is just a bullish front from Peugeot to cover up the fact that they've lost the 'formula' on "How to make a great GTI"!
The subtext reads, "We've totally lost the plot on how to reinvent the GTI, so we'll just make out that it doesn't matter to us...". It's the childish equivalent of a little kid sticking a finger in both ears whilst spouting, "Nar nar nar nar, not listening!..."
What a sad day: they produced arguably the best GTI (205 1.6 and 1.9) there's ever been - not forgetting the 106 Rallye/GTI too - and now they can't be bothered to even retry.
Mind you, even if they did rediscover the magic, hardly anybody would buy the damn thing because, frankly, their cars these days are styled by feckin' retards who quite clearly harbour a potato chipper fetish!
The subtext reads, "We've totally lost the plot on how to reinvent the GTI, so we'll just make out that it doesn't matter to us...". It's the childish equivalent of a little kid sticking a finger in both ears whilst spouting, "Nar nar nar nar, not listening!..."
What a sad day: they produced arguably the best GTI (205 1.6 and 1.9) there's ever been - not forgetting the 106 Rallye/GTI too - and now they can't be bothered to even retry.
Mind you, even if they did rediscover the magic, hardly anybody would buy the damn thing because, frankly, their cars these days are styled by feckin' retards who quite clearly harbour a potato chipper fetish!
Edited by joz8968 on Tuesday 10th November 17:19
FNG said:
havoc said:
I also think mfrs aren't helping - the new Fiesta has an excellent chassis, but Ford won't put anything hotter than the 110bhp 1.6 in there, which isn't quite enough to even be 'warm' - 140-150bhp would make it a stunning little car!
Ford don't usually release a fast version when a new model launches.There is a Fiesta ST in the pipeline but it'll be the same 2.0 Duratec engine that was in the last ST model.
As the new Fiesta is slightly lighter than its predecessor, it should be about as quick.
I'm a Mk6 Facelift ST Fez owner. Last I heard the dealerships were asked if they could sell many. The result being under what Ford needed to make it worthwhile. Shame though, as the Mk6 ST was a little unfinished IMO, the Mk7 could develop this further.
The 185 tuning package for the 2.0 Duratec making 185 brake, replace the exahust with something more subtle and you have an interesting package. Then again its N/A power which people cannot understand its different performance to something turbo charged for example. IMO turbo charge the 1.6.
It may not move things along, but it should be a great package.
hotmelt said:
205 1.1 had as good ride and handling combination as 205 gti, the same thing lower powered 405, 306 etc.
RCZ does not look as nice as Sciroco or TT, but will beat them to death when it comes to driving. If there are any doubts see us in about half a year.
I wont be holding my breath. The Scirocco and TT are very good cars all round including how they drive. For the RCZ to better them its going to have to be exceptionally good.RCZ does not look as nice as Sciroco or TT, but will beat them to death when it comes to driving. If there are any doubts see us in about half a year.
Im in agreement that Peugeot has lost their way a little. Perhaps the infamous "bean counters" have too much power?
We have been mentioned on here before (the Fiat 500, Fiat Panda, Renault Twingo) the small, nible hatches are out there. However the market / peoples attitudes go against them. "It cant be that good its a *manufacturers badge*" "But it doesn't have 23495873459872345 HP".
Its alot to do with the marketing of the cars. IMO the marketing people are doing really well. However unfortunately many people cant see through this "BS".
Image is everything
Neil_M said:
We have been mentioned on here before (the Fiat 500, Fiat Panda, Renault Twingo) the small, nible hatches are out there. However the market / peoples attitudes go against them. "It cant be that good its a *manufacturers badge*" "But it doesn't have 23495873459872345 HP".
Image is everything
I didn't buy one because they're too slow. The new Twingo is based on the old Clio chassis, yet the super-duper RenaultSport version has 133bhp. The old Clio RS had 182. And it was barely fast enough even then.Image is everything
The recipe for a good GTI is f
king simple - small, light car. Big engine. Start with that, sort out the handling etc. later.No doubt the Panda 100bhp is a great car to drive. It just has 40bhp less than my very mildly tuned 205, weighs more, and costs close to second hand proper sports car money. Same goes for the Twingo, which costs more, is not as good to drive and only slightly faster. Best of the bunch I thought was the Swift Sport, but again, it's not that quick.
Haven't driven an Abarth 500, but the diesel one had promise. It just looks so terrible. I couldn't do it. Same for the Mini.
Yeah, I'd love it if Suzuki stuck a turbo/IC on that sweet 1.6 in the Swift Sport, for between 180-200bhp (and similar torque). A genuine Corsa VXR rival, without all the boy-racer attention-grabbing slashes and strakes.
A nicly proportioned, crisply designed, well desirable HOT hatch.
In white, lol.
A nicly proportioned, crisply designed, well desirable HOT hatch.
In white, lol.
FNG said:
skwdenyer said:
bencollins said:
Re bloated modern cars, they are only bloated cos of SUVs over 2t travelling at 90 down the outside lane. Frankly I welcome the safety, at any price.
If someone wants to ban passnger cars over two tons then great, but until they do, 1.5t hatchbacks are here to stay.
As other pointed out there are plenty of good HHs around today, just seek them out, suzuki thingy is good etc, and i like the current 1.6 turbo pug / mini efforts, they´re very good IMO.
With respect, there's nothing to stop a 1t or less hatchback happily fending-off a 2t SUV except the will to build it.If someone wants to ban passnger cars over two tons then great, but until they do, 1.5t hatchbacks are here to stay.
As other pointed out there are plenty of good HHs around today, just seek them out, suzuki thingy is good etc, and i like the current 1.6 turbo pug / mini efforts, they´re very good IMO.
If you are in a 1T car and you are hit by a 2T car, the 2T car will absorb 1/3 of the energy of the crash while your little 1T car absorbs 2/3 of it.
Your little car moves backwards if it's a head-on and it has less metal between the impact point and your knees / feet / head, to boot.
All other things being equal, of course.
Big cars aren't just about perceived safety.
By your logic, we should all drive around in 2t vehicles. The fact that the sum of the energy to be managed is now even greater is seemingly less important than the ratio of the masses! Thus we get an arms race: "I've bought a 4t car so that I always come off better" and so on.
For example, let's see how we can save weight from, say, a frontal crash structure. Instead of lots of steel, let's posit a couple of extruded aluminium crush tubes. Even at constant wall thickness, we can provide progressive collapse (and energy management) performance by applying variable temper to the parts. If we fill these structures with a honeycomb matrix, or even a metal foam, we can take advantage of some massive accelerated work hardening to dissipate some energy. In this way we can cope with a great deal of frontal energy, and manage it in a progressive manner, without having to just "throw steel at the problem".
As I said originally, I'd like to see a "re-imagining" (my term) of, say, the AX GT. I maintain that I see no reason why a vehicle built to a similar ethos to the original, but in more advanced ways, couldn't be just as safe as a vehicle 25-50% heavier. Not least because the weight losses are self-compounding: less body mass requires a smaller engine, smaller gearbox, smaller driveshafts, smaller brakes and so on.
And how do you sell such a beastie to the public who - we're told - cry out for more and more metal? Mosley et al have given us the very tool: the Euro NCAP tests. They may be flawed, but they're very powerful amunitiion.
PS, used to have a 205 GTi 1.9 with a TURBO TECHNICS conversion with adjustable boost. Phuck that car was a hoot to drive and I wish I'd kept it. So called 'hot-hatches' today are overweight, far to big and way overpriced. I saw a new VW Gti on a forecourt not long back priced at £26k!!!!!! 'Get a life' Though someone will buy it 'cus' it says GTi, it just isn't though.
PPS; mine was same colour as one in photo
PPS; mine was same colour as one in photo
Edited by macdeb on Tuesday 10th November 21:21
Andy20vt said:
'Bye Bye GTi' - that happened a long time ago!
Sadly GTi or no GTi the days of great sporting Peugeots are over. I owned a 205 1.6GTi for 5 rewarding years and it was the most involving and fun car I've ever driven. The 306 DTurbo I replaced it with was also an incredibly talented little car and I loved every second.
I was dismayed when the 206 and the 307 were launched a few years back. Being a big fan of Peugeot at the time then I desperatly wanted the 206 and the 307 to be truly good cars - something I could replace my 306 with when the time came. Sadly both cars turned out to be complete dog's when compared to what had gone before.
Having just driven the recent 308 then this again is a worse car than the previous 307. It's like Peugeot are reverse engineering their cars. The 308 is even blander, even heavier, even higher and even more ugly than the 307. Oh and the steering also has even less feeling. Honestly its a boring, boring car - designed I suspect for people who don't like driving, or perhaps for people who don't even like living!
Peugeot cars in the old days used to look pretty. Both the 205 and the 306 were styled for Peugeot by Pininfarina, which is the reason that even today they still look fresh. Compare nowadays the looks of an old 306 to some of the other cars from the same era - say a Mk3 Astra or a MK5 Ford Escort, and the 306 has aged much much more gracefully. The 205 and 306 are still nice to look at after all these years. The proportions of both cars is just right. I can't see any of the current crop of Peugeots winning any prizes in a beauty contest though can you?
Needless to say I don't drive modern Peugeots any more if I can help it (unless I have to through work) and feel genuinely sorry for people who get given a new one as a company car.
So come on Peugeot - using modern technology surely it's possible to make a car that drives well and looks good again? Maybe what you actually have to do is 'take a step backwards' to go forwards?
+1, Also, my last Pug was a 306 Dts, great little car. [though not as good as the 205] After that they [and all the others] lost it. Added to that and a little off topic but sort of still on it. the only hatch that made it into a nice looking convertible was the 306. Great looking car. As for the latest attempts at convertibles with folding roofs, Come on, they look fSadly GTi or no GTi the days of great sporting Peugeots are over. I owned a 205 1.6GTi for 5 rewarding years and it was the most involving and fun car I've ever driven. The 306 DTurbo I replaced it with was also an incredibly talented little car and I loved every second.
I was dismayed when the 206 and the 307 were launched a few years back. Being a big fan of Peugeot at the time then I desperatly wanted the 206 and the 307 to be truly good cars - something I could replace my 306 with when the time came. Sadly both cars turned out to be complete dog's when compared to what had gone before.
Having just driven the recent 308 then this again is a worse car than the previous 307. It's like Peugeot are reverse engineering their cars. The 308 is even blander, even heavier, even higher and even more ugly than the 307. Oh and the steering also has even less feeling. Honestly its a boring, boring car - designed I suspect for people who don't like driving, or perhaps for people who don't even like living!
Peugeot cars in the old days used to look pretty. Both the 205 and the 306 were styled for Peugeot by Pininfarina, which is the reason that even today they still look fresh. Compare nowadays the looks of an old 306 to some of the other cars from the same era - say a Mk3 Astra or a MK5 Ford Escort, and the 306 has aged much much more gracefully. The 205 and 306 are still nice to look at after all these years. The proportions of both cars is just right. I can't see any of the current crop of Peugeots winning any prizes in a beauty contest though can you?
Needless to say I don't drive modern Peugeots any more if I can help it (unless I have to through work) and feel genuinely sorry for people who get given a new one as a company car.
So come on Peugeot - using modern technology surely it's possible to make a car that drives well and looks good again? Maybe what you actually have to do is 'take a step backwards' to go forwards?
king st. OK if your an overweight mother 'trying' to impress on the school run and nothing else. 
Andy20vt said:
macdeb said:
+1, Also, my last Pug was a 306 Dts, great little car. [though not as good as the 205] After that they [and all the others] lost it. Added to that and a little off topic but sort of still on it. the only hatch that made it into a nice looking convertible was the 306. Great looking car. As for the latest attempts at convertibles with folding roofs, Come on, they look fking st. OK if your an overweight mother 'trying' to impress on the school run and nothing else.
Yes couldn't agree more, and guess what the 306 Convertible was also styled by . . . . you guessed it . . . . 'Pininfarina' - rather than Peugeot. There's a theme developing here!king st. OK if your an overweight mother 'trying' to impress on the school run and nothing else. Shame the rest have lost the plot really.
407 has very sophisticated chassis though. Much better driver´s machine than VAG-Audi products, although one would not tell that at first. Heavy HDI engine does not harm its neutrality at all.
308 primarily robust car and less sophisticated chassis, but more adjustable than the boring Golf in corners. Has electro-hydraulic steering(better than fully electro). New RCZ gets hydraulic steering, so feel should be restored!
308 primarily robust car and less sophisticated chassis, but more adjustable than the boring Golf in corners. Has electro-hydraulic steering(better than fully electro). New RCZ gets hydraulic steering, so feel should be restored!
Edited by hotmelt on Tuesday 10th November 23:19
hotmelt said:
407 has very sophisticated chassis though. Much better driver´s machine than VAG-Audi products, although one would not tell that at first. Heavy HDI engine does not harm its neutrality at all.
308 primarily robust car and less sophisticated chassis, but more adjustable than the boring Golf in corners. Has electro-hydraulic steering(better than fully electro). New RCZ gets hydraulic steering, so feel should be restored!
Yeah I reckon the new RCZ will be really good, seem to have put a lot of effort into it and have kept the weight down. Looks great too.308 primarily robust car and less sophisticated chassis, but more adjustable than the boring Golf in corners. Has electro-hydraulic steering(better than fully electro). New RCZ gets hydraulic steering, so feel should be restored!
Edited by hotmelt on Tuesday 10th November 23:19
macdeb said:
[
+1, Also, my last Pug was a 306 Dts, great little car. [though not as good as the 205] After that they [and all the others] lost it. Added to that and a little off topic but sort of still on it. the only hatch that made it into a nice looking convertible was the 306. Great looking car. As for the latest attempts at convertibles with folding roofs, Come on, they look fking st. OK if your an overweight mother 'trying' to impress on the school run and nothing else.
To be fair all convertibles with folding hardtops look s+1, Also, my last Pug was a 306 Dts, great little car. [though not as good as the 205] After that they [and all the others] lost it. Added to that and a little off topic but sort of still on it. the only hatch that made it into a nice looking convertible was the 306. Great looking car. As for the latest attempts at convertibles with folding roofs, Come on, they look f
king st. OK if your an overweight mother 'trying' to impress on the school run and nothing else. te apart from a Mercedes sl. Anyone remember the last manufacturer to announce their new hot hatch wasn't a hot hatch, it was a coupe? Oh yeah, their sister company Citroen!
Xsara VTS was/is a massively underrated car, mainly due to lack of image as it looks so dull. Citroen tried to market it as a coupe, not a hot hatch. Underneath it was essentially the awesome 306 GTi-6, but the Pug was always way better looking.
If they'd tried to market it as a proper hot hatch, with a couple of frilly skirts, but of a chin spoiler, some lairier alloys etc they might have pulled a result off. I mean, the last hot hatch they made before that was the Saxo VTR/VTS duo....the best selling hot hatches for about 4 years on the trot if I remember? Yeah there were the finance deals, but they still sold em! It was madness to abandon the proper hot hatch after the paxos, but even worse by Peugeot to abandon the history they've created. If they'd put their back into it, they could be up there showing the way with Renault or Vauxhall.
Instead, they're going for Audi TT drivers who want to be more green and don't mind switching from their German machine to a French machine. What a roaring success it'll not be.
Xsara VTS was/is a massively underrated car, mainly due to lack of image as it looks so dull. Citroen tried to market it as a coupe, not a hot hatch. Underneath it was essentially the awesome 306 GTi-6, but the Pug was always way better looking.
If they'd tried to market it as a proper hot hatch, with a couple of frilly skirts, but of a chin spoiler, some lairier alloys etc they might have pulled a result off. I mean, the last hot hatch they made before that was the Saxo VTR/VTS duo....the best selling hot hatches for about 4 years on the trot if I remember? Yeah there were the finance deals, but they still sold em! It was madness to abandon the proper hot hatch after the paxos, but even worse by Peugeot to abandon the history they've created. If they'd put their back into it, they could be up there showing the way with Renault or Vauxhall.
Instead, they're going for Audi TT drivers who want to be more green and don't mind switching from their German machine to a French machine. What a roaring success it'll not be.
yeah cause german soft tops are not gay at all???
Peugoet invented the folding hard top
te apart from a Mercedes sl.
Peugoet invented the folding hard top
wigsworld said:
macdeb said:
[
+1, Also, my last Pug was a 306 Dts, great little car. [though not as good as the 205] After that they [and all the others] lost it. Added to that and a little off topic but sort of still on it. the only hatch that made it into a nice looking convertible was the 306. Great looking car. As for the latest attempts at convertibles with folding roofs, Come on, they look fking st. OK if your an overweight mother 'trying' to impress on the school run and nothing else.
To be fair all convertibles with folding hardtops look s+1, Also, my last Pug was a 306 Dts, great little car. [though not as good as the 205] After that they [and all the others] lost it. Added to that and a little off topic but sort of still on it. the only hatch that made it into a nice looking convertible was the 306. Great looking car. As for the latest attempts at convertibles with folding roofs, Come on, they look f
king st. OK if your an overweight mother 'trying' to impress on the school run and nothing else. te apart from a Mercedes sl. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff