Re: Peugeot: GTi is RIP

[collateral]

musclecarmad said:

A new 205 GTi 1.9 would be a massive hit with me!

if they made one smaller than most modern cars, lighter than most modern cars, not ridiculous power, small wheels and a hoot to drive, revs its tits off and cheap would make it a hit - i'd even like one 205 GTi shaped!

Wouldn't be tolerated now...anything that weighs less than 1.5 tonnes and doesn't have a VAG badge on the front doesn't seem to sell in big numbers, Renault Sport somewhat excluded.

[stockver]

Escort Si-130 said:

Thinkthats jsut it, the 6 speed gearbox was its biggest claim to fame on that model. Need more than a 6 speed gearbox to make a hot hatch. Not because it had a 6 means it would be faster than a 5 speed.

[okgo]

Escort Si-130 said:

Thinkthats jsut it, the 6 speed gearbox was its biggest claim to fame on that model. Need more than a 6 speed gearbox to make a hot hatch. Not because it had a 6 means it would be faster than a 5 speed.

havoc said:

I'd echo the "not since the 306" comments, but would disagree that you need 200bhp - the wife's GTi-6 felt quite quick enough, thanks.

That said, with ever-increasing weight, and ever decreasing driver-involvement in cars, I can see where Bullies is coming from - more power is needed now to keep the same bhp/tonne, and more sense of acceleration is needed to replace the tactile involvement that made the 205, 309 adn 306 such awesome cars to drive...

It was a very good car and better than pretty much every other hot hatch at the time.

[collateral]

Escort Si-130 said:

Thinkthats jsut it, the 6 speed gearbox was its biggest claim to fame on that model. Need more than a 6 speed gearbox to make a hot hatch. Not because it had a 6 means it would be faster than a 5 speed.

havoc said:

I'd echo the "not since the 306" comments, but would disagree that you need 200bhp - the wife's GTi-6 felt quite quick enough, thanks.

That said, with ever-increasing weight, and ever decreasing driver-involvement in cars, I can see where Bullies is coming from - more power is needed now to keep the same bhp/tonne, and more sense of acceleration is needed to replace the tactile involvement that made the 205, 309 adn 306 such awesome cars to drive...

iirc the 6th is the same height as 5th on an XSI

[havoc]

Escort Si-130 said:

Thinkthats jsut it, the 6 speed gearbox was its biggest claim to fame on that model. Need more than a 6 speed gearbox to make a hot hatch. Not because it had a 6 means it would be faster than a 5 speed.

havoc said:

I'd echo the "not since the 306" comments, but would disagree that you need 200bhp - the wife's GTi-6 felt quite quick enough, thanks.

That said, with ever-increasing weight, and ever decreasing driver-involvement in cars, I can see where Bullies is coming from - more power is needed now to keep the same bhp/tonne, and more sense of acceleration is needed to replace the tactile involvement that made the 205, 309 adn 306 such awesome cars to drive...

Congratulations on completely missing my point!

[MrTappets]

Since the -06 generation (806 aside) I haven't been interested at all. It seems Peugeot is at the forefront of the push into ever uglier and more bloated vehicles that feature absolutely no driver involvement.

As for premium coupes... the 406 coupe was only modestly successful dispite being stuningly beautiful. I just can't see them having the badge to pull it off, especially when their design direction seems to be completely at odds with what people want in a premium coupe. (ie, cheaply made, numb to drive and fugly)

[essexplumber]

well i like my 207 gti, not as good as my old 205 1.9 gti though.

[Munter]

okgo said:

306 was the last half decent one really wasn't it.

I don't think the 106 GTi was too bad was it. Or was that out before the 306?

[essexplumber]

Munter said:

okgo said:

306 was the last half decent one really wasn't it.

I don't think the 106 GTi was too bad was it. Or was that out before the 306?

i think thats the forgotten pug gti the 106. i've never driven one but always thought it looked great, and 0-60 was around the 7's i think. i think peugeot as a whole is on its arse, not just the gti badge.

[skwdenyer]

bullies180 said:

The problem is is that they don't put enough effort into making a good hot hatch. My 180 is a fantastic car but is let down by the gear box. The 207 was also not powerful enough, a hot hatch these days needs over 200bhp just to be competitive.

Am I the only one to wonder if this is not the root cause of the problem and, at the same time, a crushing indictment of mainstream modern car manufacture. 200bhp to make a hot hatch? Insanity!

If the only way to keep up with current crash regulations is to make a car so large, and so heavy, that it requires such heady power outputs so as "just to be competitive"?

How in Chapman's name have we allowed this situation to occur? Surely the time is ripe for a re-imagining of the Citroen AX or the Mk I VW Golf? Surely we deserve - and should demand - better from our manufacturers?

[minimatt1967]

collateral said:

Escort Si-130 said:

Thinkthats jsut it, the 6 speed gearbox was its biggest claim to fame on that model. Need more than a 6 speed gearbox to make a hot hatch. Not because it had a 6 means it would be faster than a 5 speed.

havoc said:

I'd echo the "not since the 306" comments, but would disagree that you need 200bhp - the wife's GTi-6 felt quite quick enough, thanks.

That said, with ever-increasing weight, and ever decreasing driver-involvement in cars, I can see where Bullies is coming from - more power is needed now to keep the same bhp/tonne, and more sense of acceleration is needed to replace the tactile involvement that made the 205, 309 adn 306 such awesome cars to drive...

iirc the 6th is the same height as 5th on an XSI

My friend had an XSi, with a GTI-6 engine and the 5 speed gearbox, those ratios seemed to suit the car better.

[loose cannon]

trouble is my old fruit with the set criteria for a car design these days being governed by safety ie bumper height, etc etc electronics for safety equipment, the weight ends up ridiculous hence why you need a bigger car to to fit it all in and still have room, and then you need over 200 horses to drag all that extra weight along

[wigsworld]

essexplumber said:

well i like my 207 gti, not as good as my old 205 1.9 gti though.

I used to like my old 207 gti too, I think it's very underrated actually. The main problem I had with it was that the damping was far too stiff for our crap roads. Other than that I thought it was a brilliant little car.

[stockver]

skwdenyer said:

bullies180 said:

The problem is is that they don't put enough effort into making a good hot hatch. My 180 is a fantastic car but is let down by the gear box. The 207 was also not powerful enough, a hot hatch these days needs over 200bhp just to be competitive.

Am I the only one to wonder if this is not the root cause of the problem and, at the same time, a crushing indictment of mainstream modern car manufacture. 200bhp to make a hot hatch? Insanity!

If the only way to keep up with current crash regulations is to make a car so large, and so heavy, that it requires such heady power outputs so as "just to be competitive"?

How in Chapman's name have we allowed this situation to occur? Surely the time is ripe for a re-imagining of the Citroen AX or the Mk I VW Golf? Surely we deserve - and should demand - better from our manufacturers?

Shirley hot hatches were the primary cause of their bloated progress?
205 GTi, Nova GTE, Renault 5 GTT, Escort XR3i. All papier maché constructed, spindly, with dynamics more suited to their 1100cc brethren than to versions often with 3 times the power. Throw in young inexperienced (joy) drivers; watch the streetlamps, fence posts and bridge supports protest.
Obviously this is gaping generalisation, both on the majority of hot hatches' dynamic characteristics, and on the causes.
But when people start cleaning their windscreens with drystone walls then the police and insurers throw up their arms and complain, forcing manufacturers to make their cars visibly safer and more secure, in an attempt to lower insurance and appeal to their markets. Hence why the idea of a manufacturer relaunching a 20 year old design in unlikely in this day and age. Lada & Dacia might, though

[skwdenyer]

loose cannon said:

trouble is my old fruit with the set criteria for a car design these days being governed by safety ie bumper height, etc etc electronics for safety equipment, the weight ends up ridiculous hence why you need a bigger car to to fit it all in and still have room, and then you need over 200 horses to drag all that extra weight along

Indeed; I'm designing one at the moment, so have a fairly good handle on the legislative requirements. As far as I can see, the major efficiency advances in the last 20 years in such areas as rolling resistance, aerodynamics, engine efficiency, transmission efficiency, and so on have been almost entirely masked by burgeoning weight. Conversely, without those other advances, the weight issue would have been tackled much earlier due to the otherwise-implausible fuel mileage figures vehicles would be saddled with.

Nonetheless, it is we - the car buyers - who have allowed this to happen.

[skwdenyer]

stockver said:

[Hence why the idea of a manufacturer relaunching a 20 year old design in unlikely in this day and age. Lada & Dacia might, though

Sorry, I said "re-imagining", not "re-starting production of"; I accept that an AX GT would not be a viable proposition in today's new-car market; that doesn't preclude the idea being revived, however.

[collateral]

In a world where the new Polo looks bigger than a mk2 Golf I have to wonder when the '8 way climatronic a/c, tall as it is long, just turn up the boost and hope no one notices it weighs 2 tonnes thing' is going to end....

[collateral]

skwdenyer said:

it is we - the car buyers - who have allowed this to happen.

I dunno, we can only buy what is being sold

[havoc]

skwdenyer said:

bullies180 said:

The problem is is that they don't put enough effort into making a good hot hatch. My 180 is a fantastic car but is let down by the gear box. The 207 was also not powerful enough, a hot hatch these days needs over 200bhp just to be competitive.

Am I the only one to wonder if this is not the root cause of the problem and, at the same time, a crushing indictment of mainstream modern car manufacture. 200bhp to make a hot hatch? Insanity!

If the only way to keep up with current crash regulations is to make a car so large, and so heavy, that it requires such heady power outputs so as "just to be competitive"?

How in Chapman's name have we allowed this situation to occur? Surely the time is ripe for a re-imagining of the Citroen AX or the Mk I VW Golf? Surely we deserve - and should demand - better from our manufacturers?

They already exist - Panda 100HP, Twingo 133, Mini Cooper. Trouble is, most buyers in the UK market are image obsessed, and image largely = headline numbers, esp. for blokes - can you imagine telling your mates down the pub you'd bought a Twingo or a Panda?!? You'd be laughed out of the place...

I also think mfrs aren't helping - the new Fiesta has an excellent chassis, but Ford won't put anything hotter than the 110bhp 1.6 in there, which isn't quite enough to even be 'warm' - 140-150bhp would make it a stunning little car!

[Rocky Balboa]

What the fk are Peugeot playing at! 'It's time to move on' the hot hatch has never been so popular!