is F1 on its knees
Discussion
I'm posting this quote because of its relevance, originally from an article about the so called 'magic of the FA Cup': 'Football fans need to stop expecting the unexpected in the FA Cup'
http://www.espnfc.co.uk/blog/tactics-and-analysis/...
"This, traditionally, is what the British sports viewer appreciates. Historically, among the most popular sports in Britain are football (the lowest-scoring sport around), test cricket (where there might be an hours' worth of highlights from a five-day match), Formula 1 (which features long periods of procession, and the odd overtake or crash) and rugby union (where almost nothing interesting happens whatsoever). Britain doesn't demand constant action, repeated upsets, and historic results. Britain quite likes routine.
Something has changed, however. Televised sport coverage now seems an arduous precursor to the post-tournament montage -- by packaging the action into two minutes, the joyful dullness of sport is entirely overlooked."
I can help but agree. F1 fans are rather fickle and things get blown out of proportion. I was at Silverstone yesterday with the radio and earphones and not much happened till the third hour and then Audi more or less romped off home. All it takes is a good dogfight/great overtake at the front and then all of of a sudden its great.
As great WEC appears to be it has fuel flow limits and you have drivers moaning being put on a leash. You've Equivalency of Technology to balance out of Hybrid performance across P1, GTs has Balance of Performance - not sure what to make of it these days especially Le Man which can be akin to a NASCAR restrictor plate race in a single file pack.
The problem with F1 as spectacle is that most won't make do unless we have a fight at the front - overtaking on track at the sharp end of the grid doesn't happen a lot and rarer for the lead. A good fight for the WDC is the down to the luck of the draw ideally the best two drivers in the best team or teams and not a dominant driver in a dominant car.
http://www.espnfc.co.uk/blog/tactics-and-analysis/...
"This, traditionally, is what the British sports viewer appreciates. Historically, among the most popular sports in Britain are football (the lowest-scoring sport around), test cricket (where there might be an hours' worth of highlights from a five-day match), Formula 1 (which features long periods of procession, and the odd overtake or crash) and rugby union (where almost nothing interesting happens whatsoever). Britain doesn't demand constant action, repeated upsets, and historic results. Britain quite likes routine.
Something has changed, however. Televised sport coverage now seems an arduous precursor to the post-tournament montage -- by packaging the action into two minutes, the joyful dullness of sport is entirely overlooked."
I can help but agree. F1 fans are rather fickle and things get blown out of proportion. I was at Silverstone yesterday with the radio and earphones and not much happened till the third hour and then Audi more or less romped off home. All it takes is a good dogfight/great overtake at the front and then all of of a sudden its great.
As great WEC appears to be it has fuel flow limits and you have drivers moaning being put on a leash. You've Equivalency of Technology to balance out of Hybrid performance across P1, GTs has Balance of Performance - not sure what to make of it these days especially Le Man which can be akin to a NASCAR restrictor plate race in a single file pack.
The problem with F1 as spectacle is that most won't make do unless we have a fight at the front - overtaking on track at the sharp end of the grid doesn't happen a lot and rarer for the lead. A good fight for the WDC is the down to the luck of the draw ideally the best two drivers in the best team or teams and not a dominant driver in a dominant car.
Yes but F1 WAS brilliant. For a few years from 2007 onwards. Great exciting races, wide open championship. Its gone now, but I do believe this brief period will be remembered as a golden age of F1.
As both Hamilton and Vettel started in 2007, they have almost defined the er. The Hatel era. Or Vetilton era.
As both Hamilton and Vettel started in 2007, they have almost defined the er. The Hatel era. Or Vetilton era.
williamp said:
Yes but F1 WAS brilliant. For a few years from 2007 onwards. Great exciting races, wide open championship. Its gone now, but I do believe this brief period will be remembered as a golden age of F1.
As both Hamilton and Vettel started in 2007, they have almost defined the er. The Hatel era. Or Vetilton era.
Nothing brilliant I that! Transition period really... 2007 Kimmi, 2008 Lewis on that nice Mclaren then Brawn GP.. Are you saying 2007 and 2008 were brilliant years? Well nothing set the world alight!As both Hamilton and Vettel started in 2007, they have almost defined the er. The Hatel era. Or Vetilton era.
And from 2000 with Schumi 5 consecutive titles followed by the 2 Alonso titles surely we are seeing just a similar dominance now? How is it surprising now? Don't get that....
SpudLink said:
DJRC said:
Because 30yrs ago is yesterday in GP history. That was precisely my point.
I normally try to avoid forum arguments, but no, it isn't. 30 years is almost half the life of the F1 championship. That's not 'yesterday'.
, Mika, DC, Schuey, Lewis, Alonso and Max Verstap to bring us bang upto date. GP racing will always exist and it will always fascinate me and the same lessons will always apply. The formula has changed many many times and yet throughout 90yrs the same lessons have always applied.
That Hamilton applied the same lesson on Sunday as Fangio and Moss applied many a time appears to be evidence of F1 in crisis to many of you. It is a source of satisfaction to me.
williamp said:
Yes but F1 WAS brilliant. For a few years from 2007 onwards. Great exciting races, wide open championship. Its gone now, but I do believe this brief period will be remembered as a golden age of F1.
As both Hamilton and Vettel started in 2007, they have almost defined the er. The Hatel era. Or Vetilton era.
I bet if you go back and watch the 2007 season you'll be surprised at how 'boring' it is/was. It'll be no different to what you're seeing last season and this in terms of battles/overtakes/processions at the front etc. As both Hamilton and Vettel started in 2007, they have almost defined the er. The Hatel era. Or Vetilton era.
London424 said:
I bet if you go back and watch the 2007 season you'll be surprised at how 'boring' it is/was. It'll be no different to what you're seeing last season and this in terms of battles/overtakes/processions at the front etc.
I do try to go back and watch some old races to see if the 'rose tinted specs' are in action.2009 I thought was a pretty good year. OK Brawn did get off to a flyer but I remember it being worth a watch. Before that, I'm one of those Senna era lads where as Hamilton put it, the cars were like bloody fast go-karts and rules n regs hadn't sterilised things.
I get the feeling that there is an underlying feeling where they just don't want to make the cars too fast or too unruly or risk the cars hitting anything other than a giant stretch of tarmac.
DJRC said:
The sooner all the casual fans or those who GP racing started with Senna get bored and bugger off the better. I would love F1 to be half as popular. Go back to being elitist, niche and none tosserish again.
F1 isn't a hobby it's a business, a business that relies upon worldwide viewing figures to sell sponsorship, advertising, and increasingly as a marketing exercise to sell road cars. I can't see sponsors shelling out big bucks for a tiny and declining audience of anoraks who get all excited over who's running the optimum tyre strategy, or who's best at lift and coast. You may want to see an elitist, niche fanbase, but that doesn't pay the bills.Ultimately, regardless of what you or I may think of modern day F1 (and I really don't like it), if it doesn't put bums on seats it's heading for failure. When there's not enough support in Germany for a home GP to be viable, and that at a time when Mercedes are dominating the sport, you have to ask what's next? Another Tilke track in some backwater dictatorship prepared to pay top dollar for a race no-one else wants?
cja said:
If F1 isn't dead, yet, it's certainly coughing up blood.......!
Compare the races of the season, with the last couple of hours, of today's WEC at Silverstone, and there's no contest. Better, probably more relevant technology, better racing and a greater spread of manufacturers, rather than 'customers'.
I've loved F1, spectated, travelled to it, marshalled at it, even worked for F1 teams (non-tech!) but I'm bored witless, these days. And don't get me started on the cost of it, or the Teflon Dwarf!!
F1 has one huge issue even above the usual ones listed. Accessibility, it's so far into its own bubble the real fans can't get close to what they want to see. Even Le Mans has a pit lane walk for the fans ffs! Compare the races of the season, with the last couple of hours, of today's WEC at Silverstone, and there's no contest. Better, probably more relevant technology, better racing and a greater spread of manufacturers, rather than 'customers'.
I've loved F1, spectated, travelled to it, marshalled at it, even worked for F1 teams (non-tech!) but I'm bored witless, these days. And don't get me started on the cost of it, or the Teflon Dwarf!!
Edited by DanielSan on Monday 13th April 20:37
Gaz. said:
F1 has never been 300km of 26 cars dicing and dog fighting all season long, ever.
Agreed. I'm too young to remember but when people talk of Jim Clark in a working Lotus they frequently talk of him just blasting off into the distance. Jackie Stewart won his famous nurburgring victory by FOUR mins!The regs have been killing the actual racing ever since they banned refuelling.
Crappy tyres (designed to be crappy) that when pushed won't last a lap! and heavy cars with full race distance means it's all about tyre saving.
Accessibility to the sport & drivers and now even live timing is only available if you pay for it.
Not embracing social media is another nail in the coffin.
I would get up at stupid o'clock in the morning to watch FP1 etc - now I watch it on fast forward. Often the most interesting part of the weekend is the Principles Press Conference, well it won't be the drivers as they seldom stray from their PR speak.
This year is worse than it's been for a while. The new front wings have made it impossible to follow another car close enough to get within a decent overtaking opportunity because getting too close means your tyres will wear more quickly and the tyres are crap as previously mentioned.
I've yet to watch a race live or even in full - I've FFWD my way through them. Bernie apparently had a word with Merc and said don't drive away at the weekend.
I'm sure we'll have some decent races this year but that will be by luck or the weather throwing a six at the grid and shaking it up.
Crappy tyres (designed to be crappy) that when pushed won't last a lap! and heavy cars with full race distance means it's all about tyre saving.
Accessibility to the sport & drivers and now even live timing is only available if you pay for it.
Not embracing social media is another nail in the coffin.
I would get up at stupid o'clock in the morning to watch FP1 etc - now I watch it on fast forward. Often the most interesting part of the weekend is the Principles Press Conference, well it won't be the drivers as they seldom stray from their PR speak.
This year is worse than it's been for a while. The new front wings have made it impossible to follow another car close enough to get within a decent overtaking opportunity because getting too close means your tyres will wear more quickly and the tyres are crap as previously mentioned.
I've yet to watch a race live or even in full - I've FFWD my way through them. Bernie apparently had a word with Merc and said don't drive away at the weekend.
I'm sure we'll have some decent races this year but that will be by luck or the weather throwing a six at the grid and shaking it up.
DJRC said:
That Hamilton applied the same lesson on Sunday as Fangio and Moss applied many a time appears to be evidence of F1 in crisis to many of you. It is a source of satisfaction to me.
I thought that too. Fangio always said that the aim was to win at the slowest speed - which is what Hamilton was doing.entropy said:
I'm posting this quote because of its relevance, originally from an article about the so called 'magic of the FA Cup': 'Football fans need to stop expecting the unexpected in the FA Cup'
http://www.espnfc.co.uk/blog/tactics-and-analysis/...
"This, traditionally, is what the British sports viewer appreciates. Historically, among the most popular sports in Britain are football (the lowest-scoring sport around), test cricket (where there might be an hours' worth of highlights from a five-day match), Formula 1 (which features long periods of procession, and the odd overtake or crash) and rugby union (where almost nothing interesting happens whatsoever). Britain doesn't demand constant action, repeated upsets, and historic results. Britain quite likes routine.
I have two main sports: F1 and rugby. I know next to nothing about the others mentioned.http://www.espnfc.co.uk/blog/tactics-and-analysis/...
"This, traditionally, is what the British sports viewer appreciates. Historically, among the most popular sports in Britain are football (the lowest-scoring sport around), test cricket (where there might be an hours' worth of highlights from a five-day match), Formula 1 (which features long periods of procession, and the odd overtake or crash) and rugby union (where almost nothing interesting happens whatsoever). Britain doesn't demand constant action, repeated upsets, and historic results. Britain quite likes routine.
However, in both 'my' sports, to suggest nothing happens because no one scores or overtakes is, of course, absolute rubbish.
Rugby, which I know a bit about, being on the committee of my local club, is full of action. Just because no one scores points with scrums, rucks, mauls and line-outs, does not mean there's no action. Despite appearances, rugby is subtle. A simple looking scrum penalty can be massively significant. I've seen fans leap out of their seats when, so to speak, a ref's arm goes up.
If you are not 'into it' then the backs running in for a try from their own half is the highlight. Yet a most interesting aspect of most matches is the battle between the #9s.
Then there's there tight fives, the way the flankers battle, the centres' influence.
I could go on, and have I suppose, but the same goes for all sports. If you are into them, you see more. I don't play golf and to suggest that I should find it interesting to watch is rather farcical. Yet my elder son-in-law played off scratch (before he married my daughter, she soon sorted him out) and is glued to the TV when Opens are on.
A problem with F1 is that subtleties are lacking to an extent, certainly more than in the past, but the only thing of interest is not which car/driver wins. Down the field battles have always been worth concentrating on.
On the plus side, maldonado vs button was a great fight. An unusually good showing from snr pastor.. And so rare to see coverage of out-of-points drivers. So good.
But I'm cancelling my sky contract, this 'show' just isnt worth 20 pounds per month.
When the regs change I may reinvest.
But the for now the saving will provide me with half a gram of chav cut, hookers can wait.
But I'm cancelling my sky contract, this 'show' just isnt worth 20 pounds per month.
When the regs change I may reinvest.
But the for now the saving will provide me with half a gram of chav cut, hookers can wait.
Edited by itannum990 on Tuesday 14th April 08:56
CrgT16 said:
Nothing brilliant I that! Transition period really... 2007 Kimmi, 2008 Lewis on that nice Mclaren then Brawn GP.. Are you saying 2007 and 2008 were brilliant years? Well nothing set the world alight!
And from 2000 with Schumi 5 consecutive titles followed by the 2 Alonso titles surely we are seeing just a similar dominance now? How is it surprising now? Don't get that....
This backs up my point.And from 2000 with Schumi 5 consecutive titles followed by the 2 Alonso titles surely we are seeing just a similar dominance now? How is it surprising now? Don't get that....
Like football you have many 0-0. and also some 4-3 thrillers. So 2007 had thrilling end and 2008 had some high points, but remember the 2008 French GP, a classic hey? No dull as ditch water.
07-08 cars had proved tyres + highlighly advanced aero, overtaking was near impossible, hence the 09 reg change to spice up the racing.
07-08 definitely wasn't a golden era of F1. It was the high point of "it's impossible to overtake in F1"
That was the time when F1 aero was at its most extreme. The cars looked a mess, covered with vents, winglets, bargeboards, horns & goodness knows what else. Google "2008 McLaren" to see the best example. This created a massive problem with 'dirty air' and the cars couldn't get close to one another, never mind overtake. GPs were a series of sprints between refuelling stops.
That was the time when F1 aero was at its most extreme. The cars looked a mess, covered with vents, winglets, bargeboards, horns & goodness knows what else. Google "2008 McLaren" to see the best example. This created a massive problem with 'dirty air' and the cars couldn't get close to one another, never mind overtake. GPs were a series of sprints between refuelling stops.
itannum990 said:
On the plus side, maldonado vs button was a great fight. An unusually good showing from snr pastor.. And so rare to see coverage of out-of-points drivers. So good.
But I'm cancelling my sky contract, this 'show' just isnt worth 20 pounds per month.
When the regs change I may reinvest.
But the for now the saving will provide me with half a gram of chav cut, hookers can wait.
The problem you have is the reinvestment may cost a lot more if you don't have the full sky sports package.But I'm cancelling my sky contract, this 'show' just isnt worth 20 pounds per month.
When the regs change I may reinvest.
But the for now the saving will provide me with half a gram of chav cut, hookers can wait.
Edited by itannum990 on Tuesday 14th April 08:56
RYH64E said:
DJRC said:
The sooner all the casual fans or those who GP racing started with Senna get bored and bugger off the better. I would love F1 to be half as popular. Go back to being elitist, niche and none tosserish again.
F1 isn't a hobby it's a business, a business that relies upon worldwide viewing figures to sell sponsorship, advertising, and increasingly as a marketing exercise to sell road cars. I can't see sponsors shelling out big bucks for a tiny and declining audience of anoraks who get all excited over who's running the optimum tyre strategy, or who's best at lift and coast. You may want to see an elitist, niche fanbase, but that doesn't pay the bills.Ultimately, regardless of what you or I may think of modern day F1 (and I really don't like it), if it doesn't put bums on seats it's heading for failure. When there's not enough support in Germany for a home GP to be viable, and that at a time when Mercedes are dominating the sport, you have to ask what's next? Another Tilke track in some backwater dictatorship prepared to pay top dollar for a race no-one else wants?
Blokes race. Folks want to be the fastest. That will never change nor will my fascination with it.
DJRC said:
RYH64E said:
DJRC said:
The sooner all the casual fans or those who GP racing started with Senna get bored and bugger off the better. I would love F1 to be half as popular. Go back to being elitist, niche and none tosserish again.
F1 isn't a hobby it's a business, a business that relies upon worldwide viewing figures to sell sponsorship, advertising, and increasingly as a marketing exercise to sell road cars. I can't see sponsors shelling out big bucks for a tiny and declining audience of anoraks who get all excited over who's running the optimum tyre strategy, or who's best at lift and coast. You may want to see an elitist, niche fanbase, but that doesn't pay the bills.Ultimately, regardless of what you or I may think of modern day F1 (and I really don't like it), if it doesn't put bums on seats it's heading for failure. When there's not enough support in Germany for a home GP to be viable, and that at a time when Mercedes are dominating the sport, you have to ask what's next? Another Tilke track in some backwater dictatorship prepared to pay top dollar for a race no-one else wants?
Blokes race. Folks want to be the fastest. That will never change nor will my fascination with it.
So if it died a death how would you watch it, go to see one race a year at one corner on one track.
the best racing in the world, with the best drivers, actually wait, you mainly have to pay for a drive or bring money in. The business model is broken, I can see it falling on its arse in a few years when sky and other companies ditch it as its not lucrative anymore. it wont die but it will be a shadow of its former self unless they act now.
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