F1 Azerbaijan clash with Le Mans 2016
Discussion
London424 said:
And yet more people are watching F1 live.
Value for money WEC hands down.
Where are more people watching F1 live? Not sure that I have noticed any F1 race with 260000 paying spectators! Over the course of the seasons, factored to even out the number of events I would be surprised to find that F1 has more people watching it live. Value for money WEC hands down.
Taking TV audiences is a little different, yes. Although that can be directly attributable to the amount of exposure there is on mainstream, free to air TV.
Taking the two together, considering how little TV exposure WEC gets the crowds at places like Silverstone are very good. Imagine how many would rock up if they had seen in on BBC1 every event.
WEC can provide better value for money because the tracks can make money from many areas other than just paying spectators and don't have to spend millions just for the privilege of hosting the event.
andyps said:
London424 said:
And yet more people are watching F1 live.
Value for money WEC hands down.
Where are more people watching F1 live? Not sure that I have noticed any F1 race with 260000 paying spectators! Over the course of the seasons, factored to even out the number of events I would be surprised to find that F1 has more people watching it live. Value for money WEC hands down.
Taking TV audiences is a little different, yes. Although that can be directly attributable to the amount of exposure there is on mainstream, free to air TV.
Taking the two together, considering how little TV exposure WEC gets the crowds at places like Silverstone are very good. Imagine how many would rock up if they had seen in on BBC1 every event.
WEC can provide better value for money because the tracks can make money from many areas other than just paying spectators and don't have to spend millions just for the privilege of hosting the event.
Silverstone this year, how many did WEC get vs F1? What about Spa. And that's with tickets at a fraction of the price.
London424 said:
F1 doesn't have an equivalent of Le Mans.
Silverstone this year, how many did WEC get vs F1? What about Spa. And that's with tickets at a fraction of the price.
As I said, that is an invalid comparison as without exposure elsewhere there is limited knowledge of WEC away from the already committed fan base, you have to go out of your way to watch it on TV unlike F1 which is on the UKs largest TV channel frequently - 21 weekends next year, often in prime time slots. Whilst I am talking about the UK my understanding is that the situation is replicated elsewhere.Silverstone this year, how many did WEC get vs F1? What about Spa. And that's with tickets at a fraction of the price.
I would disagree, F1 does have an equivalent of Le Mans with Monaco which actually has relatively cheap entry for many viewing areas. I don't think it attracts quite as many spectators as Le Mans, however.
andyps said:
London424 said:
F1 doesn't have an equivalent of Le Mans.
Silverstone this year, how many did WEC get vs F1? What about Spa. And that's with tickets at a fraction of the price.
As I said, that is an invalid comparison as without exposure elsewhere there is limited knowledge of WEC away from the already committed fan base, you have to go out of your way to watch it on TV unlike F1 which is on the UKs largest TV channel frequently - 21 weekends next year, often in prime time slots. Whilst I am talking about the UK my understanding is that the situation is replicated elsewhere.Silverstone this year, how many did WEC get vs F1? What about Spa. And that's with tickets at a fraction of the price.
I would disagree, F1 does have an equivalent of Le Mans with Monaco which actually has relatively cheap entry for many viewing areas. I don't think it attracts quite as many spectators as Le Mans, however.
You can dress it up all you like. It doesn't have the tv exposure. It doesn't have the live crowds. It doesn't have faster cars. The one thing it does have is great ticket prices and value for money.
Monaco really isn't comparable to Le Mans. There is nothing that compares. It's a unique experience in world racing.
London424 said:
Well you're going to have to help me out with how WEC is pissing all over F1 then.
your words, not mineLondon424 said:
You can dress it up all you like. It doesn't have the tv exposure. It doesn't have the live crowds. It doesn't have faster cars. The one thing it does have is great ticket prices and value for money.
Between Mosley and Ecclestone they managed to drive competition out of the market through the deals done with circuits and TV companies (mainly Ecclestone) and the lack of international regulation (Mosley) which meant that TV exposure didn't happen consistently over the year. F1 at Silverstone gets around 100k spectators, WEC around 30k, but that is only part of the comparison. F1 is in July when it is reasonably warm, WEC at Easter when it is not, and there are many other family commitments people have on race day. But if we take it that Le Mans is the largest WEC crowd with 260000 spectators, add in the totals for the other races and get an average then it may well be that they are very similar to F1 - look how few turn up to Abu Dhabi for example. If you are that concerned to make your point please find the figures, I've got better things to do. As a spectator, WEC cars are equally as quick as F1 cars, and due to mixed classes provide genuine excitement throughout a race. I've witnessed closer finishes at Le Mans after 24 hours than F1 regularly produces after 90 minutes, and certainly not been sure of a winner 30 minutes before which, baring reliability, isn't often the case in F1. Absolute speed isn't everything.London424 said:
Monaco really isn't comparable to Le Mans. There is nothing that compares. It's a unique experience in world racing.
Le Mans is the pinnacle of WEC as Monaco is to F1. They are two of the three races regarded as the top in motorsport. Le Mans is unique, as is Monaco. They are the comparable races for each series to I'm not sure what you are saying, other than trying to justify your own view. I'm fine with that, but we don't all have to share it and just saying something doesn't make it true, particularly if you are so blasé about it.I guess we disagree on this, that is fine. I love F1 and want to see it succeed, but the initial topic of this thread shows to me that Bernie is worried about protecting it against competition, indicating he recognises WEC is a real threat which could make people defect from F1 - drivers and viewers.
As much as I love WEC at the moment you can't compare Le Mans and Monaco.
Le Mans is a largely open track that spans around 8 miles. Monaco is a tight street track that is completely enclosed (save for the sea front) by high rise flats that is tightly packed into about 2 miles.
The other major event I would compare it to is the Indy 500 which attracted around 220,000 people this year. But then you see other Indycar races and the attendance is roughly a tenth of that.
edit: Le Mans and the Indy 500 are both show case events for each series. Both events span a week+ (scrutineering, test day etc) whereas F1 turn up on Thursday and go home on Sunday.
Also, F1 cars are quicker. A lot of that is down to the ~200kg less weight they carry around, and the fact that F1 cars have a greater allowed fuel flow/ph. The LMP1 cars demonstrate their speed a lot better due to the fact that run with mixed classes, the way that they just sail past lower classes is breathtaking.
Le Mans is a largely open track that spans around 8 miles. Monaco is a tight street track that is completely enclosed (save for the sea front) by high rise flats that is tightly packed into about 2 miles.
The other major event I would compare it to is the Indy 500 which attracted around 220,000 people this year. But then you see other Indycar races and the attendance is roughly a tenth of that.
edit: Le Mans and the Indy 500 are both show case events for each series. Both events span a week+ (scrutineering, test day etc) whereas F1 turn up on Thursday and go home on Sunday.
Also, F1 cars are quicker. A lot of that is down to the ~200kg less weight they carry around, and the fact that F1 cars have a greater allowed fuel flow/ph. The LMP1 cars demonstrate their speed a lot better due to the fact that run with mixed classes, the way that they just sail past lower classes is breathtaking.
Edited by WonkeyDonkey on Saturday 17th October 00:40
WonkeyDonkey said:
As much as I love WEC at the moment you can't compare Le Mans and Monaco.
Le Mans is a largely open track that spans around 8 miles. Monaco is a tight street track that is completely enclosed (save for the sea front) by high rise flats that is tightly packed into about 2 miles.
The other major event I would compare it to is the Indy 500 which attracted around 220,000 people this year. But then you see other Indycar races and the attendance is roughly a tenth of that.
In terms of practical spectator numbers that is correct, but there are quite a lot of miles of the Le Mans circuit which are no go areas for spectators, a lot more than half of it. Le Mans is a largely open track that spans around 8 miles. Monaco is a tight street track that is completely enclosed (save for the sea front) by high rise flats that is tightly packed into about 2 miles.
The other major event I would compare it to is the Indy 500 which attracted around 220,000 people this year. But then you see other Indycar races and the attendance is roughly a tenth of that.
Indy is the third race I referred to of course. Le Mans, Monaco and the Indy 500 are equivalent within their series and therefore are comparable in some ways. However, whichever way you look at it there isn't an F1 race which gets anywhere near the live spectator numbers that Le Mans and the Indy 500 achieve. The three races are unique but F1 can't attract 200k people to any single venue.
WonkeyDonkey said:
The LMP1 cars demonstrate their speed a lot better due to the fact that run with mixed classes, the way that they just sail past lower classes is breathtaking.
F1 has the same thing though, every time anything with a Mercedes or Ferrari PU comes up on a Mclaren-Honda...andyps said:
In terms of practical spectator numbers that is correct, but there are quite a lot of miles of the Le Mans circuit which are no go areas for spectators, a lot more than half of it.
Indy is the third race I referred to of course. Le Mans, Monaco and the Indy 500 are equivalent within their series and therefore are comparable in some ways. However, whichever way you look at it there isn't an F1 race which gets anywhere near the live spectator numbers that Le Mans and the Indy 500 achieve. The three races are unique but F1 can't attract 200k people to any single venue.
I reckon F1 could attract the spectator numbers quite easily if the event was big and unique enough. If you had a 24 hours of Le Mans but with F1, GP2 and GP3 cars it would attract as large a crowd as WEC (if it wasn't £400 a ticket). Indy is the third race I referred to of course. Le Mans, Monaco and the Indy 500 are equivalent within their series and therefore are comparable in some ways. However, whichever way you look at it there isn't an F1 race which gets anywhere near the live spectator numbers that Le Mans and the Indy 500 achieve. The three races are unique but F1 can't attract 200k people to any single venue.
Le Mans gets massive crowds because it is a proper event, no F1 race i've been to has felt as spectacular as Le Mans did when I went this year.
Comparing F1 with WEC is like comparing Football to Rugby. They are very different and appeal different people.
WEC requires a level of investment in time and understanding to appreciate over and above that required of F1 and attracts a more dedicated fan base. If you strip away the spectators at the British GP who one might call 'casual' observers, there for the spectacle, then what you would be left with would, IMO, be similar numbers to those who go to the WEC round at Silverstone.
The only thing in recent years that has had the potential (and I stress 'potential') to rival F1 was A1GP.
WEC requires a level of investment in time and understanding to appreciate over and above that required of F1 and attracts a more dedicated fan base. If you strip away the spectators at the British GP who one might call 'casual' observers, there for the spectacle, then what you would be left with would, IMO, be similar numbers to those who go to the WEC round at Silverstone.
The only thing in recent years that has had the potential (and I stress 'potential') to rival F1 was A1GP.
thegreenhell said:
If you're talking about race-day attendance, do any of the current F1 circuits even have the capacity for 200k spectators in one day? Silverstone was reported to be sold out at 140k for the British GP this year.
And if you add in Saturday qualifying and then the Friday practice sessions and you're well up over a quarter of a million.London424 said:
And if you add in Saturday qualifying and then the Friday practice sessions and you're well up over a quarter of a million.
That number probably requires a lot of double counting of people, although correct for total gate numbers 
I think the issue is more than the overall numbers in any way of putting it. I said that there is justification for putting WEC (and specifically LMP1) as the pinnacle of motorsport rather than F1 - we can (and have
) argue that point. What is a shame is that Bernie has decided to deny people some choice about watching or participating in both with the re-jigged F1 calendar for 2016. I believe that would be very intentional on his part, and could have been avoided. Not sure which I will watch, I'm going to Le Mans for the classic next year so it will be TV for either or both, but Le Mans v Baku probably isn't much decision really.
As I understand it the times are such that will be 2 hours left of Le Mans when the Baku race is over. Either way I think this is more a statement of how CVC controls everything and they're ones who (wrongly) think WEC is a threat to F1 viewing figures, or (wrongly) think they can take some advertising money away from Le Mans.
This year I watched it on the WEC website so if Baku happens to be a live BBC race then I simpy watch both
. But if I have to choose then Le Mans it is.
This year's WEC at Silverstone was the same weekend as the Chinese GP and people we're watching both. Blancpain series was the same weekend as Monaco and people we're watching both even in the paddock.
It's just misguided to think this will affect anything or even Baku is going to get more viewers TV wise. Or is made to impress the Baku people to give CVC more money but ultimately is all rather ignorant.
F1 is losing the engagement of the fans and is not making new ones or younger ones. WEC and endurance in general beat F1 in that by a mile. Nurburgring pit walk this year was just insane and quite cool vibe too. ELMS today is free to attend.
This year I watched it on the WEC website so if Baku happens to be a live BBC race then I simpy watch both
. But if I have to choose then Le Mans it is.This year's WEC at Silverstone was the same weekend as the Chinese GP and people we're watching both. Blancpain series was the same weekend as Monaco and people we're watching both even in the paddock.
It's just misguided to think this will affect anything or even Baku is going to get more viewers TV wise. Or is made to impress the Baku people to give CVC more money but ultimately is all rather ignorant.
F1 is losing the engagement of the fans and is not making new ones or younger ones. WEC and endurance in general beat F1 in that by a mile. Nurburgring pit walk this year was just insane and quite cool vibe too. ELMS today is free to attend.
Wasn't Group C killed off partly because it became too much of a threat to F1? The cars were faster (straight line), and at Silverstone at least I remember that the pole lap for one 1000kms meeting would have been 5th on the grid for the previous GP.
TV coverage was always an issue for 6 hours for the "sprint" races, but that could be sorted simply because you don't necessarily need TV to get the race to the viewers these days.
Happened before and it could happen again; these days the hybrid engines would be seen as far more suited to the efficiency ethos of endurance racing than F1. Stick Ferrari in LMP1 and I reckon F1 would be dead in the water. Pretty much is already AFAIC.
TV coverage was always an issue for 6 hours for the "sprint" races, but that could be sorted simply because you don't necessarily need TV to get the race to the viewers these days.
Happened before and it could happen again; these days the hybrid engines would be seen as far more suited to the efficiency ethos of endurance racing than F1. Stick Ferrari in LMP1 and I reckon F1 would be dead in the water. Pretty much is already AFAIC.
The thing that Bernie has overlooked from a tv audience point of view is that it's entirely possible to follow both events at the same time thanks to, amongst other things, the way in which the WEC engage with their fans through social Media and specifically, their app. Ecclestone's Neanderthal viewpoints on new media have left f1 lagging far behind in this department.
If you were technologically naive and didn't either know or understand the various regulations governing each sport, I would say WEC edges out F1 from an entertainment point of view you have the posterboy supercars and the otherworldy Prototypes there's overtaking, noise and a great spectacle. Sure watching an F1 dance during qualifying is mesmerising but its not as watch able
It was me that stated in terms of value for money there's no contest. Allow me to elaborate, I think a weekend pass, hotel, travel from Cornwall, and tickets for the wife and kids was probably cheaper than a general admission ticket for the F1, for one person. Loads going on, ELMS and 90% of the stuff put on for the kids was free. It was astonishing.
F1 is not enough of a spectacle anymore to justify the price tag, and yes I've been to both. All the WEC needs is someone to pick up the TV rights on free to air and it'll send CVC into a blind panic. I'm now considering a trip to Le Mans...
F1 is not enough of a spectacle anymore to justify the price tag, and yes I've been to both. All the WEC needs is someone to pick up the TV rights on free to air and it'll send CVC into a blind panic. I'm now considering a trip to Le Mans...
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