Jolyon Palmer, another "Daddy's Boy" in F1. A good thing?
Discussion
Rather than arguing that having a F1 Dad is no guarantee of success (I agree, it isn't), can we turn this round? If everyone n PH got the same level of support as, say, LH, how far would the best of us get? My hunch is someone on here would be good enough to make the grid. Maybe quite a few could.
By comparison, we've all had to kick a ball around at school, but, in a sport where people the world over have the opp to shine, has anyone on here made the grade?
It's a reality that money is a barrier to F1, but it kind of fascinates me that that there may be someone out there (or many people) who could blow away the whole grid but for the fact they can't afford to drive a regular car, let alone an F1 car.
By comparison, we've all had to kick a ball around at school, but, in a sport where people the world over have the opp to shine, has anyone on here made the grade?
It's a reality that money is a barrier to F1, but it kind of fascinates me that that there may be someone out there (or many people) who could blow away the whole grid but for the fact they can't afford to drive a regular car, let alone an F1 car.
gl20 said:
Rather than arguing that having a F1 Dad is no guarantee of success (I agree, it isn't), can we turn this round? If everyone n PH got the same level of support as, say, LH, how far would the best of us get? My hunch is someone on here would be good enough to make the grid. Maybe quite a few could.
By comparison, we've all had to kick a ball around at school, but, in a sport where people the world over have the opp to shine, has anyone on here made the grade?
It's a reality that money is a barrier to F1, but it kind of fascinates me that that there may be someone out there (or many people) who could blow away the whole grid but for the fact they can't afford to drive a regular car, let alone an F1 car.
Well Jim Clark was a sheep farmer after all, and Jackie Stewart was a dyslexic drop out with an inferiority complex who'd have been a bum had he not got into clay pigeon shooting. But I think part of what makes a good driver/chef/ watchmaker/politician is the growth they have in that direction. Some guys are very analytical and are encouraged to push that & see where it takes them. Others just "see" things and experience reinforces their already held beliefs. By comparison, we've all had to kick a ball around at school, but, in a sport where people the world over have the opp to shine, has anyone on here made the grade?
It's a reality that money is a barrier to F1, but it kind of fascinates me that that there may be someone out there (or many people) who could blow away the whole grid but for the fact they can't afford to drive a regular car, let alone an F1 car.
We all know talented people who will always struggle because they give up too easily. And they will lose out to people who have less talent but an amazing work ethic. I don't think there's a way to turn one into the other through coaching, their own history has to change them.
I don't really get this post at all.
Jonathan Palmer has done pretty well for himself since he was flogging T-shirts to pay for his F3 career, but he certainly wasn't a super-rich diletante and to suggest his son is, just because they share a surname, seems churlish.
There are a lot of talentless drivers in test and racing roles (I give you Suzie Wolf - Not an F1 test driver or DTM driver for any ability she's ever exhibited behind the wheel), but the current F2 champion is never one of them!
Maybe Jolyon Palmer isn't the next Lewis Hamilton (well, too late for that, he's not been groomed by Mercedes since he was 12 for a start!), but he's clearly a competitive driver in the, supposed, feeder series for F1, so why the hell shouldn't he be in an F1 car for a while?
Where does the OP suggest we get F1 drivers from? A lottery? How about a race around an industrial estate in Corsas and the top 5 get the Ferrari, Williams, Mercedes, Red Bull and Sauber no 1 slots for 2016?
If the feeling is that drivers with famous dads shouldn't be allowed in F1, well, welcome to the world of nepotism - Every field has sons or daughters of famous parents in high profile roles, but that doesn't mean that none of them deserve to be there.
When Hamilton was winning in F3000 he was sometimes beaten (usually resulting in the sulky look we're all familiar with now) by Adam Carroll having a hit and miss attendance as he scrapped around with tail end teams for a budget to get on the grid, a stunningly talented driver who really should have made F1 on talent.
He struggled to get into F3000 whereas Hamilton had been funded all through his career by super wealthy backers. Carroll was a match for Hamilton, but sadly wasn't given a silver-arrow replacement for the supposed missing silver-spoon, but seemingly Hamilton's dad (because we'd never heard of him) was worthy of his son becoming an F1 driver...
Worry about the talentless oiks with lots of money rather than those who've used any advantage they have to get their talents displayed.
M
Jonathan Palmer has done pretty well for himself since he was flogging T-shirts to pay for his F3 career, but he certainly wasn't a super-rich diletante and to suggest his son is, just because they share a surname, seems churlish.
There are a lot of talentless drivers in test and racing roles (I give you Suzie Wolf - Not an F1 test driver or DTM driver for any ability she's ever exhibited behind the wheel), but the current F2 champion is never one of them!
Maybe Jolyon Palmer isn't the next Lewis Hamilton (well, too late for that, he's not been groomed by Mercedes since he was 12 for a start!), but he's clearly a competitive driver in the, supposed, feeder series for F1, so why the hell shouldn't he be in an F1 car for a while?
Where does the OP suggest we get F1 drivers from? A lottery? How about a race around an industrial estate in Corsas and the top 5 get the Ferrari, Williams, Mercedes, Red Bull and Sauber no 1 slots for 2016?
If the feeling is that drivers with famous dads shouldn't be allowed in F1, well, welcome to the world of nepotism - Every field has sons or daughters of famous parents in high profile roles, but that doesn't mean that none of them deserve to be there.
When Hamilton was winning in F3000 he was sometimes beaten (usually resulting in the sulky look we're all familiar with now) by Adam Carroll having a hit and miss attendance as he scrapped around with tail end teams for a budget to get on the grid, a stunningly talented driver who really should have made F1 on talent.
He struggled to get into F3000 whereas Hamilton had been funded all through his career by super wealthy backers. Carroll was a match for Hamilton, but sadly wasn't given a silver-arrow replacement for the supposed missing silver-spoon, but seemingly Hamilton's dad (because we'd never heard of him) was worthy of his son becoming an F1 driver...
Worry about the talentless oiks with lots of money rather than those who've used any advantage they have to get their talents displayed.
M
Edited by marcosgt on Monday 26th October 14:36
And then we have to consider the sad case of Tommy Byrne -lightning quick in F3 , a rough diamond who tested McLaren , reputedly p**ed off Ronzo so much he never got another chance. Talent got him there but personality ensured he didn't get the drive his speed merited .
Consider Jacques Villeneuve too - not sure I would ever suggest his name alone got him to F1, where he undoubtedly belonged. Or Alberto Ascari - dad was a GP star too and both were the real deal.
Consider Jacques Villeneuve too - not sure I would ever suggest his name alone got him to F1, where he undoubtedly belonged. Or Alberto Ascari - dad was a GP star too and both were the real deal.
^^^ I thought the legend of Jacques Villeneuve was that he got a big break when he was jogging round the lower formulas in Japan and somebody did mix up his name and hired the wrong Villenuve.
Also this thread has reminded me of a while ago when another PHer observed that "Nelson Piquet Jr. wasn't even the fastest driver named Nelson Piquet".
Also this thread has reminded me of a while ago when another PHer observed that "Nelson Piquet Jr. wasn't even the fastest driver named Nelson Piquet".
There is an extremely good case for son's being a sad shadow of their F1-racing dads. In fact, I can think of no son who was "better" than their dad. But in Palmer I feel there is an exception to the rule - there has to be one sooner or later. Not to say that Palmer is the next great replacement for Lewis (I see that as, wishfully, Stoneman or Cammish, or actually, Norris) but he may well be better than his dad... wow. Let him have a go and get some support where he deserves it.
Jolyon Palmer has proven himself a great racer and a great overtaker in GP2. His problem is he is too big/tall. Sadly that always goes against drivers these days.
Jolyon Palmer has proven himself a great racer and a great overtaker in GP2. His problem is he is too big/tall. Sadly that always goes against drivers these days.
suffolk009 said:
^^^ I thought the legend of Jacques Villeneuve was that he got a big break when he was jogging round the lower formulas in Japan and somebody did mix up his name and hired the wrong Villenuve.
Also this thread has reminded me of a while ago when another PHer observed that "Nelson Piquet Jr. wasn't even the fastest driver named Nelson Piquet".
So tney hadn't hadn't heard that Gilles was dead then?Also this thread has reminded me of a while ago when another PHer observed that "Nelson Piquet Jr. wasn't even the fastest driver named Nelson Piquet".
coppice said:
So tney hadn't hadn't heard that Gilles was dead then?
No, I think the story is that some promoter wanted the older Jacques (Gilles' brother, also a racing driver) at an event or race, probably something in Canada, and somebody accidentally hired the kid. That was apparently the turn of events that got young Jacques back with Craig Pollock. The two had known each other many years before.I forget where I read it. Motorsport perhaps.
mattikake said:
Jolyon Palmer has proven himself a great racer and a great overtaker in GP2. His problem is he is too big/tall. Sadly that always goes against drivers these days.
I really enjoyed his GP2 winning season - some great drives and showed greater mental strength than Nasr who is a a genuinely quick driver. The sad reality for up and coming drivers is the limited seats in F1. There will always be a greater number of very talented driver who don't make it than those that do.Watching the highlights from Laguna Seca for the final round of the Indycar Lights series and spotted Max Chilton in it, finishing 3rd. I guess that's a feeder series to full-fat Indycar and not a bad alternative.
l354uge said:
All this talk of it being a waste of a good race seat.
What about kimi? What has he done since rejoining Ferrari? Just like Schumacher's second coming I think it's a shame he's taking up a seat a young something like verstappen could be using to piss of vettel...
I'm a fan of Kimi and I think his best season ever driving-wise was when he didn't win a single race for McLaren as the car let him down. It's a bit sad seeing him now not at his spiky finest.What about kimi? What has he done since rejoining Ferrari? Just like Schumacher's second coming I think it's a shame he's taking up a seat a young something like verstappen could be using to piss of vettel...
rohrl said:
Jolyon Palmer has been confirmed as having a seat in the Lotus/Renault team next year, making him just the latest son of a former F1 driver to take his place in an F1 car.
Is this a good thing or not? Formula One has long claimed to be the home of the best drivers in the world but it would be a hell of a coincidence if so many of the best drivers in the world happened to be the sons of former Formula One drivers wouldn't it? I'm not persuaded that the genetic inheritance works that strongly. It seems more likely to me that the barriers to entry to F1 are very high and that former F1 drivers are in a better position than most to negotiate their sons through the minefield of junior formulae and sponsorship than the average man with a talented driver for a son.
I think F1 drivers are supreme athletes, even in the olden days before all the training/superfit lifestyle they'd have been the top alpha %, and therefore likely to produce offspring of the same ilk. Most of this class could probably excel at tennis or football or most things they turn their hand to, it's just if your dads a bit of a legend you're probably more likely/expected/find doors opening to follow in his footsteps.Is this a good thing or not? Formula One has long claimed to be the home of the best drivers in the world but it would be a hell of a coincidence if so many of the best drivers in the world happened to be the sons of former Formula One drivers wouldn't it? I'm not persuaded that the genetic inheritance works that strongly. It seems more likely to me that the barriers to entry to F1 are very high and that former F1 drivers are in a better position than most to negotiate their sons through the minefield of junior formulae and sponsorship than the average man with a talented driver for a son.
Just the same way that if the kids of nadal or federer show any aptitude for sports they'll have a tennis bat in their hands as soon as they can walk and will hone their skills just because.
Oh, and like said for all the criticism you can level at him and much of it I wouldn't care to counter, but he still won the official feeder series, against supposedly the best F1 drivers of the future. It's a sad indictment of F1's overly commercial inclination that he can't get some kind of drive.
gl20 said:
Rather than arguing that having a F1 Dad is no guarantee of success (I agree, it isn't), can we turn this round? If everyone n PH got the same level of support as, say, LH, how far would the best of us get? My hunch is someone on here would be good enough to make the grid. Maybe quite a few could.
By comparison, we've all had to kick a ball around at school, but, in a sport where people the world over have the opp to shine, has anyone on here made the grade?
It's a reality that money is a barrier to F1, but it kind of fascinates me that that there may be someone out there (or many people) who could blow away the whole grid but for the fact they can't afford to drive a regular car, let alone an F1 car.
A load of rubbish I'm afraid.. with all due respect.. there are some on here who might make the grid but money is just one small part of it.. there are thousands of children that simply don;t have the determination. Talent will only get you so far. Most drivers have made it due also to an unwavering obsession that few children display.By comparison, we've all had to kick a ball around at school, but, in a sport where people the world over have the opp to shine, has anyone on here made the grade?
It's a reality that money is a barrier to F1, but it kind of fascinates me that that there may be someone out there (or many people) who could blow away the whole grid but for the fact they can't afford to drive a regular car, let alone an F1 car.
Otherwise why has no-one on here made it in professional football; as you say, no money needed to get into that... or many other sports. Money is only one ingredient. In motorsport; it is vital - but on its own; it's nothing.
I don't think that Palmer's Dad is really making any difference here. Yes, he drove in F1 but he wasn't a massive superstar and a household name, so this isn't what's getting him the drive.
He is a 'pay driver' and is bringing sponsorship to the team, if he wasn't then Kevin Magnussen would be in the seat but he costs a lot more money.
JP won GP2 in his fourth season, the same as everyone's favourite strategically shaven Venezuelan crash-monkey, before buying a drive at a mid grid team. Their history isn't that different really, but due to JP's nationality people seem to treat him in a different way. In fact, Pastor had a better record in his four seasons of GP2 than JP, you can draw your own conclusions from that.
Palmer is a better drive than I am, and better than most junior drivers, but he is not in F1 100% on merit based on past results. Even looking at British drivers I'd put James Calado, Sam Bird, Alex Lynn or Tom Bolmqvist above him.
It could be worse though, I'm sure it's only a matter of time until Jordan King rocks up with a bag of cash and an F1 contract of some sort...
He is a 'pay driver' and is bringing sponsorship to the team, if he wasn't then Kevin Magnussen would be in the seat but he costs a lot more money.
JP won GP2 in his fourth season, the same as everyone's favourite strategically shaven Venezuelan crash-monkey, before buying a drive at a mid grid team. Their history isn't that different really, but due to JP's nationality people seem to treat him in a different way. In fact, Pastor had a better record in his four seasons of GP2 than JP, you can draw your own conclusions from that.
Palmer is a better drive than I am, and better than most junior drivers, but he is not in F1 100% on merit based on past results. Even looking at British drivers I'd put James Calado, Sam Bird, Alex Lynn or Tom Bolmqvist above him.
It could be worse though, I'm sure it's only a matter of time until Jordan King rocks up with a bag of cash and an F1 contract of some sort...
The key thing to note, too, is that some very well regarded drivers in junior formulae simply don't cut it in F1 .The reasons can be many,and some aren't to do with raw driving ability at all , but other drivers just find that once in F1 they really shine like never before . Great white hopes like Jan Magnussen, JJ Lehto , Dave Walker, Alex Zanardi , Stefano Modena and Mike Thackwell just never gelled in F1 but were terrific in junior stuff. Others , often with so-so careers lower down, ( Mansell, K Rosberg , D Hill and Arnoux ) turned out much better than their previous form had hinted at .
Good luck to JP - and forget who his dad was. Incidentally it is fashionable to sneer at JP senior's career and whilst he wasn't a Vettel he was bloody quick on his day - but the memory of the less than stellar BTCC effort can taint what preceded it. I saw him in F2 and he was no slouch - but the best I saw him was driving the wheels off a Lola T70
Good luck to JP - and forget who his dad was. Incidentally it is fashionable to sneer at JP senior's career and whilst he wasn't a Vettel he was bloody quick on his day - but the memory of the less than stellar BTCC effort can taint what preceded it. I saw him in F2 and he was no slouch - but the best I saw him was driving the wheels off a Lola T70
Interesting post. I wish Jolyon well. I remember him looking pretty fearful before a wet T-Cars race 10 years ago, but he has gone further than I imagined he could that day.
Whilst I'm pleased to have a GP2 winner and Brit in a good F1 team, I hope that it doesn't all change when Renault get back in charge. I just don't feel the combination of rookie + Maldonado feels like a works manufacturer F1 line up.
As for Dad, I was a big fan of his in the 80s. Superb at Monaco, he took some pretty shabby Tyrrells to high scoring points positions, and regularly had the beating of highly rated team-mates like Streiff, Alboreto and Bailey. It was only when Alesi came along that JP Snr realised that there was someone faster in the same car and took up a McLaren Honda test role. It's a shame that Kimi, Rubens and one or two others couldn't have such realism.
Whilst I'm pleased to have a GP2 winner and Brit in a good F1 team, I hope that it doesn't all change when Renault get back in charge. I just don't feel the combination of rookie + Maldonado feels like a works manufacturer F1 line up.
As for Dad, I was a big fan of his in the 80s. Superb at Monaco, he took some pretty shabby Tyrrells to high scoring points positions, and regularly had the beating of highly rated team-mates like Streiff, Alboreto and Bailey. It was only when Alesi came along that JP Snr realised that there was someone faster in the same car and took up a McLaren Honda test role. It's a shame that Kimi, Rubens and one or two others couldn't have such realism.
Redlake27 said:
Whilst I'm pleased to have a GP2 winner and Brit in a good F1 team, I hope that it doesn't all change when Renault get back in charge. I just don't feel the combination of rookie + Maldonado feels like a works manufacturer F1 line up.
I'm not sure if anyone else gets the same feeling, but to me this looks like Lotus planning for 2016 to continue as a non-manufacturer supported team. If you were a manufacturer team, even with a wage budget which wouldn't stretch to a Hamilton/Alonso/Vettel then you'd be signing up Jean Eric Vergne and Kevin Magnussen, not the least marketable man in F1 and a total rookie.Could be they did this before and ran the team as it was for one year whilst they sorted themselves out for the new regs, new engines new team etc, they might be doing it again run it for a learning year with no pressure until they are prepared for a bigger effort in year two ( similar to what happened after they took over from Benneton).
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