What's the lineage of existing teams?
Discussion
marshalla said:
Lotus Racing ?
HRT ?
Virgin ?
Stewart ?
If you're discounting teams that started in lower formulae, then Jordan doesn't count either.
I guess it's natural that most teams will at the very least develop from something that already exists, particularly with regards to facilities i.e. Manor Motorsport have been very active/successful in other formulae for years prior to the Virgin/Marussia F1 team. Didn't HRT, Lotus Racing and Stewart also evolve from existing feeder series facilities (RTN, Campos and Paul Stewart, respectively)HRT ?
Virgin ?
Stewart ?
If you're discounting teams that started in lower formulae, then Jordan doesn't count either.
Have any teams actually been built from the absolute ground up, i.e. new factory, facilities etc?
marshalla said:
Lotus Racing ?
HRT ?
Virgin ?
Stewart ?
If you're discounting teams that started in lower formulae, then Jordan doesn't count either.
I said nothing about lower formulae. I was thinking of teams new to F1 who didn't enter the category by picking up the entry of a team that wanted out or was sold.HRT ?
Virgin ?
Stewart ?
If you're discounting teams that started in lower formulae, then Jordan doesn't count either.
I thought that these came in on the back of previously existing teams.
Eric Mc said:
I said nothing about lower formulae. I was thinking of teams new to F1 who didn't enter the category by picking up the entry of a team that wanted out or was sold.
I thought that these came in on the back of previously existing teams.
Lotus, HRT and Virgin(Manor) (and technically USF1) all came in in 2010 under the new entrant rules intended to increase the number of teams. All were new entrants to F1. Lotus did have some discussions with Litespeed, but since Litespeed didn't get an entry I don't think much came of that.I thought that these came in on the back of previously existing teams.
Stewart joined in 1997 and was also a new entrant, with backing from Ford.
Hence my confusion about the lower formulae. Please accept my apologies.
ukaskew said:
marshalla said:
Lotus Racing ?
HRT ?
Virgin ?
Stewart ?
If you're discounting teams that started in lower formulae, then Jordan doesn't count either.
I guess it's natural that most teams will at the very least develop from something that already exists, particularly with regards to facilities i.e. Manor Motorsport have been very active/successful in other formulae for years prior to the Virgin/Marussia F1 team. Didn't HRT, Lotus Racing and Stewart also evolve from existing feeder series facilities (RTN, Campos and Paul Stewart, respectively)HRT ?
Virgin ?
Stewart ?
If you're discounting teams that started in lower formulae, then Jordan doesn't count either.
Have any teams actually been built from the absolute ground up, i.e. new factory, facilities etc?
Exige77 said:
ukaskew said:
marshalla said:
Lotus Racing ?
HRT ?
Virgin ?
Stewart ?
If you're discounting teams that started in lower formulae, then Jordan doesn't count either.
I guess it's natural that most teams will at the very least develop from something that already exists, particularly with regards to facilities i.e. Manor Motorsport have been very active/successful in other formulae for years prior to the Virgin/Marussia F1 team. Didn't HRT, Lotus Racing and Stewart also evolve from existing feeder series facilities (RTN, Campos and Paul Stewart, respectively)HRT ?
Virgin ?
Stewart ?
If you're discounting teams that started in lower formulae, then Jordan doesn't count either.
Have any teams actually been built from the absolute ground up, i.e. new factory, facilities etc?
It's a LONG story.
However, it has its roots in the history of the Lotus operation as it was set up by Colin Chapman way back in the mid 1950s. Back then, he decided, for management and tax reasons, to run the racing team (which in those days ran cars in F1, F2 and sportscars) in one company, customer racing cars in another and production road cars in a third company.
So, right from the early days there was more than one Lotus branded car company in existence.
Over the next few decades these companies went through various changes and went through even more after Chapman died in 1982. By the time General Motors bought the road car production company in the mid 1980s, the connections between the Lotus production road cars and their Formula 1 operations were already pretty tenuous.
However, it has its roots in the history of the Lotus operation as it was set up by Colin Chapman way back in the mid 1950s. Back then, he decided, for management and tax reasons, to run the racing team (which in those days ran cars in F1, F2 and sportscars) in one company, customer racing cars in another and production road cars in a third company.
So, right from the early days there was more than one Lotus branded car company in existence.
Over the next few decades these companies went through various changes and went through even more after Chapman died in 1982. By the time General Motors bought the road car production company in the mid 1980s, the connections between the Lotus production road cars and their Formula 1 operations were already pretty tenuous.
KarlMac said:
Can someone please explain (to a simpleton) how Lotus are not Lotus?
I.e. how does the team use the brand without having anything to do with Lotus production cars?
Right - pay attention Bond. I.e. how does the team use the brand without having anything to do with Lotus production cars?
Team Lotus, unlike Group Lotus (which contains the car and engineering companies amongst others), was owned by Chapman up until his death in 1982, and then slowly lost its way until the Pacific Team Lotus debacle. So that team hasn't raced since 1992 in any guise. Rights to the Team Lotus name ended up with David Hunt (brother of James), eventually.
Tony Fernandes did a deal for 1Malaysia Racing Team to race as Lotus Racing with a licence from Group Lotus, then lost the licence (long story, change of Lotus management, sale of unauthorised products, allegations being made on both sides, very messy), so bought the Team Lotus name from David Hunt, then it all went really sour (court case) and he lost that brand, so he changed it to Caterham and they went bust. There's a lot of Malaysian politics and honour stuff going on behind the scenes of that story which we'll probably never know about.
Meanwhile, the new management at Hethel persuaded their paymasters to do a deal with the Enstone team (formerly known as Tolemann, Benetton, Renault etc.) to race under the Lotus F1 brand. The team, internally, call themselves the Enstone team, but race with the badge of whoever is willing to pay, or lend, the appropriate amount of money. They have no connection to Group Lotus apart from the use of the name.
Edited by marshalla on Wednesday 28th October 17:02
Re Tyrrell->BAR->Honda->Brawn->Mercedes
As I remember it, BAR only bought Tyrrell's F1 entry, they didn't buy the factory or the operation. BAR then started their own team, which was born out of Adrian Reynard's operation in Brackley which competed in lower formulae.
Have I got that right?
As I remember it, BAR only bought Tyrrell's F1 entry, they didn't buy the factory or the operation. BAR then started their own team, which was born out of Adrian Reynard's operation in Brackley which competed in lower formulae.
Have I got that right?
Bradgate said:
Re Tyrrell->BAR->Honda->Brawn->Mercedes
As I remember it, BAR only bought Tyrrell's F1 entry, they didn't buy the factory or the operation. BAR then started their own team, which was born out of Adrian Reynard's operation in Brackley which competed in lower formulae.
Have I got that right?
Pretty much - but that's the added complication of F1. What we see as "the team" is usually a group of companies, one of which is the entrant, and then the others actually making the cars, managing the sponsorship etc. in order to protect each from problems in any of the others, and to protect the most valuable asset which is the entry itself.As I remember it, BAR only bought Tyrrell's F1 entry, they didn't buy the factory or the operation. BAR then started their own team, which was born out of Adrian Reynard's operation in Brackley which competed in lower formulae.
Have I got that right?
Bradgate said:
Re Tyrrell->BAR->Honda->Brawn->Mercedes
As I remember it, BAR only bought Tyrrell's F1 entry, they didn't buy the factory or the operation. BAR then started their own team, which was born out of Adrian Reynard's operation in Brackley which competed in lower formulae.
Have I got that right?
That is correct, Ken left the team in 1998 as he wasn't happy with Rosset being picked by BAR to pilot one of his cars (The mechanics actually switched around the R and T at the start and end of his name after Monaco to show what they thought of him...) So Craig Pollock was in charge of Tyrrell's final year in F1.As I remember it, BAR only bought Tyrrell's F1 entry, they didn't buy the factory or the operation. BAR then started their own team, which was born out of Adrian Reynard's operation in Brackley which competed in lower formulae.
Have I got that right?
BAR then came to life in 1999 with new factory and personal. Most of the old Tyrrell team went with Harvey Postlethwaite to the still born Honda project.
marshalla said:
Meanwhile, the new management at Hethel persuaded their paymasters to do a deal with the Enstone team (formerly known as Tolemann, Benetton, Renault etc.) to race under the Lotus F1 brand. The team, internally, call themselves the Enstone team, but race with the badge of whoever is willing to pay, or lend, the appropriate amount of money. They have no connection to Group Lotus apart from the use of the name.
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