Is Jenson Button the best driver in F1?
Discussion
London424 said:
RYH64E said:
Scuffers said:
RYH64E said:
Sandford said:
He is British and local so I might also be biased. 
Local if you happen to live in Monaco I suppose, it's a shame that the British drivers don't feel sufficiently British to pay their taxes here.Also, if in your chosen carrier, you effectively only had say <10 years, why the hell would you NOT want to be as tax efficient as possible when you consider you will be retiring at <30?
ks about press intrusion, really? It was a money saving venture, pure and simple. I rather doubt that Hamilton or Button will ever have to struggle for money even if they paid UK taxes, the rest of us manage on significantly (very significantly) less money than either of them earns in a year (or month).What I find difficult to understand is the patriotic support for so called 'British' drivers who have chosen to live as tax exiles rather than give something back to their country of birth. Nobody likes paying taxes, me least of all, but I'm British and I pay more than my fair share of taxes, that's the way it is. As far as I'm concerned they've ditched Britain to save a few quid, I certainly don't consider them to be British drivers.
The only big chunks of time he could be in the UK would be November - Feb. If you had loads of money and didn't have anything to do would you choose to spend those months here?
Anyway, my point wasn't whether Hamilton or Button should pay their taxes in the UK, my point was whether, having decided to abandon the UK in order to save a bit of money, these drivers deserve our patriotic support for being British drivers.
DanielSan said:
And how many other rookies have been given a championship contending car from day 1 of their career? Even Alonso started in a Minard...
How many rookies have matched their experienced world championship winning teammates from day 1 of their career?! I think hamiltons record in the junior formula proved he deserved the seat and he made sure plonkers like you don't have a leg to stand on with that argument by his record in his rookie year:-)RobM77 said:
BoredNerd said:
RobM77 said:
We also need to consider which driver had more support at McLaren of course. I don't think the above shows that either driver is obviously better, but what it does show is that Button is indeed up there with the best of today's drivers. I'm not sure we can draw any conclusions beyond that though can we?
I think it's difficult to make a judgement in sport because there are so many factors affecting the outcome. This especially applies in motorsport, where a huge engineering team also contribute to victory. Unless someone is obviously a Rossi, Schumacher or Federer, comparisons are extremely tricky, if not impossible without in depth knowledge of circumstances. I personally would never dream of judging drivers (or any sports person) from my sofa.
This. x1000. I think it's difficult to make a judgement in sport because there are so many factors affecting the outcome. This especially applies in motorsport, where a huge engineering team also contribute to victory. Unless someone is obviously a Rossi, Schumacher or Federer, comparisons are extremely tricky, if not impossible without in depth knowledge of circumstances. I personally would never dream of judging drivers (or any sports person) from my sofa.
This actually comes from personal experience! If I race a competitive car and win races, then I get a trophy and people clap etc. However, if I drive an old uncompetitive car on old tyres and come mid-field (as I have done recently), then I get posts on Pistonheads telling me that I'm s
t and asking why I even bother. Like most people, over the years I've been in both situations and know how it feels. I've also lost opportunities based on these posts, no matter how groundless and daft they are. I'm friends with quite a well known pro driver who's had exactly the same treatment and exactly the same loss of drives etc. Ergo, I would never dream of criticising a driver without knowing all the facts.I used to get very frustrated at losing races. I still do, really, but I know that my ability is less than half the story. If you're driving a pig, you cant alter the laws of physics to move up the field. You get your head down, get on with it, and accept that it's just not going to be your day. The lads in the pub after may not think you the second coming of Ayrton Senna, but, if their opinion is of any worth (i.e. if they have any experience at all) they'll understand how motorsport works.
RYH64E said:
London424 said:
RYH64E said:
Scuffers said:
RYH64E said:
Sandford said:
He is British and local so I might also be biased.
Local if you happen to live in Monaco I suppose, it's a shame that the British drivers don't feel sufficiently British to pay their taxes here.Also, if in your chosen carrier, you effectively only had say <10 years, why the hell would you NOT want to be as tax efficient as possible when you consider you will be retiring at <30?
ks about press intrusion, really? It was a money saving venture, pure and simple. I rather doubt that Hamilton or Button will ever have to struggle for money even if they paid UK taxes, the rest of us manage on significantly (very significantly) less money than either of them earns in a year (or month).What I find difficult to understand is the patriotic support for so called 'British' drivers who have chosen to live as tax exiles rather than give something back to their country of birth. Nobody likes paying taxes, me least of all, but I'm British and I pay more than my fair share of taxes, that's the way it is. As far as I'm concerned they've ditched Britain to save a few quid, I certainly don't consider them to be British drivers.
The only big chunks of time he could be in the UK would be November - Feb. If you had loads of money and didn't have anything to do would you choose to spend those months here?
Anyway, my point wasn't whether Hamilton or Button should pay their taxes in the UK, my point was whether, having decided to abandon the UK in order to save a bit of money, these drivers deserve our patriotic support for being British drivers.
For me, while a British citizen, irrespective of domicile they get patriotic support.
RYH64E said:
Where does Ron Dennis Live? Or Frank Williams? Or all of the mechanics at McLaren, Williams, etc? They do just as much travelling to far flung circuits but still live and pay taxes in the UK.
Anyway, my point wasn't whether Hamilton or Button should pay their taxes in the UK, my point was whether, having decided to abandon the UK in order to save a bit of money, these drivers deserve our patriotic support for being British drivers.
Wonder if you had the same opinion of Jim Clarke, Jackie Stewart, David coulthard, Eddie Irvine et al......I don't know many British f1 drivers who have lived in Britain over the years! And quite frankly I can't blame them! Anyway, my point wasn't whether Hamilton or Button should pay their taxes in the UK, my point was whether, having decided to abandon the UK in order to save a bit of money, these drivers deserve our patriotic support for being British drivers.
And let's face it, look at foreign drivers and they are just the same.....Schumacher, rosberg etc etc didn't stay in Germany for too long did they?!
So what if they choose not to live in the UK? It doesn't suddenly stop them from being British. Maybe they prefer the Mediterranean climate? Or is it just because they are in a tax haven that it is seen as an issue by some people? What if they moved to France or Italy or the USA or Mongolia and paid the local taxes there, would that be better?
Thousands of British people live outside the UK and pay taxes outside the UK, but still consider themselves to be, and legally are, British citizens.
Thousands of British people live outside the UK and pay taxes outside the UK, but still consider themselves to be, and legally are, British citizens.
37chevy said:
DanielSan said:
And how many other rookies have been given a championship contending car from day 1 of their career? Even Alonso started in a Minard...
How many rookies have matched their experienced world championship winning teammates from day 1 of their career?! I think hamiltons record in the junior formula proved he deserved the seat and he made sure plonkers like you don't have a leg to stand on with that argument by his record in his rookie year:-)Hamilton is the love child of Anthony Hamilton and Ron Dennis. He turned out very fast. But also very weird.
deadslow said:
stupidly aggressive comment
Hamilton is the love child of Anthony Hamilton and Ron Dennis. He turned out very fast. But also very weird.
Not aggressive....perfectly factualHamilton is the love child of Anthony Hamilton and Ron Dennis. He turned out very fast. But also very weird.
1) Hamilton deserved his seat
2) you're a complete plonker if you think otherwise based on his results before f1 and the results of his first season
37chevy said:
deadslow said:
stupidly aggressive comment
Hamilton is the love child of Anthony Hamilton and Ron Dennis. He turned out very fast. But also very weird.
Not aggressive....perfectly factualHamilton is the love child of Anthony Hamilton and Ron Dennis. He turned out very fast. But also very weird.
1) Hamilton deserved his seat
2) you're a complete plonker if you think otherwise based on his results before f1 and the results of his first season
Nobody said he didn't deserve his seat, just that it is super unusual for any rookie to come straight into a championship contending car. And it is.
Crikey, enough of the Lewis warrior antics. This thread is about the extremely talented Lewis beater, Jenson Button.
deadslow said:
wow, take a chill pill
Nobody said he didn't deserve his seat, just that it is super unusual for any rookie to come straight into a championship contending car. And it is.
Crikey, enough of the Lewis warrior antics. This thread is about the extremely talented Lewis beater, Jenson Button.
You've come across as seriously bum hurt on a number of threads when it comes to Lewis and his success...Nobody said he didn't deserve his seat, just that it is super unusual for any rookie to come straight into a championship contending car. And it is.
Crikey, enough of the Lewis warrior antics. This thread is about the extremely talented Lewis beater, Jenson Button.
Let's not mention the man love you have for jb.
Anyway, as I said earlier, we've established as talented as he is, he sits about 5th best drivers in current crop of drivers.
Leroy902 said:
You've come across as seriously bum hurt on a number of threads when it comes to Lewis and his success...
Let's not mention the man love you have for jb.
Anyway, as I said earlier, we've established as talented as he is, he sits about 5th best drivers in current crop of drivers.
Let's not mention the man love you have for jb.
Anyway, as I said earlier, we've established as talented as he is, he sits about 5th best drivers in current crop of drivers.
JB admirer, but no fan. He's just a great guy and can beat anyone on his day. Glad to hear you're following my posts. Sounds like you could learn something. deadslow said:
wow, take a chill pill
Nobody said he didn't deserve his seat, just that it is super unusual for any rookie to come straight into a championship contending car. And it is.
Crikey, enough of the Lewis warrior antics. This thread is about the extremely talented Lewis beater, Jenson Button.
I remember this cropping up a while back and did a bit of research on rookies jumping into the best team.....and it's more common than you think......just not from the mid 90s onwards....but then most drivers didn't have Lewis's record in the junior formula either....lets remember he beat rosberg, vettel, piquet and others in the junior formula....so fully deserved his seat at mclaren.....Nobody said he didn't deserve his seat, just that it is super unusual for any rookie to come straight into a championship contending car. And it is.
Crikey, enough of the Lewis warrior antics. This thread is about the extremely talented Lewis beater, Jenson Button.
....and yes let's get back to the best driver in the universe.....
swisstoni said:
SeeFive said:
No, he is not.
Ok, that's a well reasoned and persuasive point.When he lucked into a good car that suited his driving style and was far better than the other cars, he won a WDC against a journeyman. He can't drive around car problems in the way his contemporaries can or provide adequate development feedback to get them eradicated. He is a boring latter career Prost style driver without the car development capabilities or skill level or speed of Prost. IMO, he is a reasonable plodder who had his lucky year.
But he likeable and interviews well which suits the sponsors and fanboys.
SeeFive said:
Well, I have waited and waited for this mix of blind fanboyism and detractors to develop and sway my point of view and the answer remains in my mind remains that he is not. He is a capable peddler, a very nice bloke but far from the best at any stage in his long time in F1.
Except he won a championship which immediately invalidates your argument. The WDC is the best that year regardless of what complaints non-fans could level at them. SeeFive said:
When he lucked into a good car that suited his driving style and was far better than the other cars, he won a WDC against a journeyman.
I don't think you were even watching F1 2009. Vettel was Button main rival for the Championship, Barrichello didn't factor at all except for a brief period when he won in Valencia and Button retired in Belgium, then he was firmly back in 3rd again. Irrespective of your opinion -not reality-, a driver who can adapt quickly to changeable conditions and be the benchmark by which other drivers base their pitstops is not just a "reasonable plodder".
He compares himself to Prost, and why shouldn't he? No driver is going to get respect if they call themselves "The Ivan Capelli of Modern F1".
BarbaricAvatar said:
SeeFive said:
Well, I have waited and waited for this mix of blind fanboyism and detractors to develop and sway my point of view and the answer remains in my mind remains that he is not. He is a capable peddler, a very nice bloke but far from the best at any stage in his long time in F1.
Except he won a championship which immediately invalidates your argument. The WDC is the best that year regardless of what complaints non-fans could level at them. SeeFive said:
When he lucked into a good car that suited his driving style and was far better than the other cars, he won a WDC against a journeyman.
I don't think you were even watching F1 2009. Vettel was Button main rival for the Championship, Barrichello didn't factor at all except for a brief period when he won in Valencia and Button retired in Belgium, then he was firmly back in 3rd again. Irrespective of your opinion -not reality-, a driver who can adapt quickly to changeable conditions and be the benchmark by which other drivers base their pitstops is not just a "reasonable plodder".
He compares himself to Prost, and why shouldn't he? No driver is going to get respect if they call themselves "The Ivan Capelli of Modern F1".
So the actual reality is that he proved that year he was better than Rubens. But I can think of half a dozen drivers that I could say the same about in that year. He is likeable and competent but still not the best in the field that or any other year he has competed IMO. We will continue to have a different opinion.
SeeFive said:
Keeping in with all of the ifs and buts, if Vettel had been in the Brawn, I am afraid that would have been another WDC that JB missed. Vettel gave him a run for that championship as you said, but for the majority of the season which I watched, in inferior machinery. Yes, all ifs and buts, and JB did a good job that year, but nothing stellar. So many others would have also put Rubens in his place, but then if my uncle was a woman he'd be my auntie.
So the actual reality is that he proved that year he was better than Rubens. But I can think of half a dozen drivers that I could say the same about in that year. He is likeable and competent but still not the best in the field that or any other year he has competed IMO. We will continue to have a different opinion.
I seem to recall Barrichello putting Schumacher in his place a few times. In line with your ifs and buts line of thinking if Button had been in a RBR he'd have won another title likewise with MB as he's beaten Hamilton but he wasn't. You can twist it anyway you like but he's a WDC which in the second half of the year he was probably in the 4th fastest car. You seem to have forgotten he came 3rd in 2004 when the only drivers that beat him were wait for it Schumacher and Barrichello and they had a very dominant Ferrari which apart from the brilliance of Brawn and Todt was courtesy of of the FIA and Bridgestone.So the actual reality is that he proved that year he was better than Rubens. But I can think of half a dozen drivers that I could say the same about in that year. He is likeable and competent but still not the best in the field that or any other year he has competed IMO. We will continue to have a different opinion.
RYH64E said:
Where does Ron Dennis Live? Or Frank Williams? Or all of the mechanics at McLaren, Williams, etc? They do just as much travelling to far flung circuits but still live and pay taxes in the UK.
Anyway, my point wasn't whether Hamilton or Button should pay their taxes in the UK, my point was whether, having decided to abandon the UK in order to save a bit of money, these drivers deserve our patriotic support for being British drivers.
No they don't deserve the patriotic support. Hamilton really tries to play to the crowd draped in a Union Jack. Those gullible enough seem to lap it up. He then sprints off to LAAnyway, my point wasn't whether Hamilton or Button should pay their taxes in the UK, my point was whether, having decided to abandon the UK in order to save a bit of money, these drivers deserve our patriotic support for being British drivers.
I know I've posted this before, but we can't forget his early career success, which to be honest shows that he's freakishly talented:
Aged 11, won all 34 races of the British Cadet Kart championship
Aged 18, won British Formula Ford championship in his debut year and the Formula Ford festival
Aged 19, 3rd in British F3
Aged 19, secured a place at Williams F1 after a shoot out with an established successful F3000 driver.
Even compared to other top F1 drivers, that's quite some record. He went on to be the youngest driver ever in F1 to score a point.
The trouble is, judging a driver's performance becomes increasingly difficult the further up the ladder they go though, due to increasing variability in cars. In F1 there are several chassis and engine manufacturers, constantly changing rules and wildly varying budgets. Even people I know who work in F1 or high up in motorsport dodge the question of who's best, because the more you know it seems the more you realise that variability makes it hard to judge.
As ever, my stance on this is that he's one of the best in F1 from the last decade, but compared to Hamilton, Alonso, Grosjean etc, as this thread asks in its title, it really is very hard to call and I wouldn't know where to start.
Aged 11, won all 34 races of the British Cadet Kart championship
Aged 18, won British Formula Ford championship in his debut year and the Formula Ford festival
Aged 19, 3rd in British F3
Aged 19, secured a place at Williams F1 after a shoot out with an established successful F3000 driver.
Even compared to other top F1 drivers, that's quite some record. He went on to be the youngest driver ever in F1 to score a point.
The trouble is, judging a driver's performance becomes increasingly difficult the further up the ladder they go though, due to increasing variability in cars. In F1 there are several chassis and engine manufacturers, constantly changing rules and wildly varying budgets. Even people I know who work in F1 or high up in motorsport dodge the question of who's best, because the more you know it seems the more you realise that variability makes it hard to judge.
As ever, my stance on this is that he's one of the best in F1 from the last decade, but compared to Hamilton, Alonso, Grosjean etc, as this thread asks in its title, it really is very hard to call and I wouldn't know where to start.
Edited by RobM77 on Monday 11th January 10:47
37chevy said:
DanielSan said:
And how many other rookies have been given a championship contending car from day 1 of their career? Even Alonso started in a Minard...
How many rookies have matched their experienced world championship winning teammates from day 1 of their career?! I think hamiltons record in the junior formula proved he deserved the seat and he made sure plonkers like you don't have a leg to stand on with that argument by his record in his rookie year:-)Bell end.
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