Mercedes to sue former employer
Discussion
https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjaminhoyle
Mercedes powertrain engineer, so not sure if that says he copied engine information that is his business and he should know about, or if he targeted other areas he didn't.
Mercedes powertrain engineer, so not sure if that says he copied engine information that is his business and he should know about, or if he targeted other areas he didn't.
I took it that as soon as he told Mercedes he was leaving they put him into a different role which would mean he didn't have access to the F1 engine data and development so he would not be up to date when he joined Ferrari. However, whilst in the other role he accessed information he was not supposed to and potentially is aiming to take that to Ferrari.
On past experience that means the FIA should step in and fine Ferrari $100m
On past experience that means the FIA should step in and fine Ferrari $100m
FourWheelDrift said:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjaminhoyle
Mercedes powertrain engineer, so not sure if that says he copied engine information that is his business and he should know about, or if he targeted other areas he didn't.
But he'd already been reassigned to other non F1 related projects so it was non of his business anymore.Mercedes powertrain engineer, so not sure if that says he copied engine information that is his business and he should know about, or if he targeted other areas he didn't.
.....Hoyle, who intends to join Ferrari after his contract expires in December, searched for and saved files including a race report from the Hungary 2015 Grand Prix, mileage and damage data relating to Mercedes’ F1 engines and files containing code required to decrypt raw race data files, the suit alleges.....
.....Hoyle told Mercedes he would resign when his contract expired at the end of 2015. Mercedes "became aware" shortly afterwards that Hoyle intended to join Ferrari and so reassigned him to duties that were unrelated to F-1. He was given a new e-mail address and proprietary data was removed from his laptop. Despite his reassignment, Hoyle was found looking at race reports and took confidential data, according to the suit. He deleted files in an attempt to conceal his wrongdoing, the company said......
......Mercedes is seeking the return of all documents and information, payment of its legal fees, and wants to block Hoyle from joining Ferrari or any other F-1 competitor until after the 2016 season.......
andyps said:
I took it that as soon as he told Mercedes he was leaving they put him into a different role which would mean he didn't have access to the F1 engine data and development so he would not be up to date when he joined Ferrari. However, whilst in the other role he accessed information he was not supposed to and potentially is aiming to take that to Ferrari.
On past experience that means the FIA should step in and fine Ferrari $100m
On past experience that means the FIA should step in and fine Ferrari $100m
Doink said:
andyps said:
I took it that as soon as he told Mercedes he was leaving they put him into a different role which would mean he didn't have access to the F1 engine data and development so he would not be up to date when he joined Ferrari. However, whilst in the other role he accessed information he was not supposed to and potentially is aiming to take that to Ferrari.
On past experience that means the FIA should step in and fine Ferrari $100m
On past experience that means the FIA should step in and fine Ferrari $100m
Never ceases to amaze just how stupid some clearly very bright boys and grils can really be.
This one though is mind boggeleingly stupid. Not only does he tell them he is leaving to go to the red team but then still tries to access files he has specifically been locked out of after telling Merc that he is going.
I am no IT geek nor security wizard but i would have thought that in the last 5 years (if not since 2008...) the second any employee with a computer on site tells you that they are off to pastures new they are reassigned, access restricted to the bare minimum and the last 12 months of their computer history checked in detail to ensure no unauthorised release of information.
This one though is mind boggeleingly stupid. Not only does he tell them he is leaving to go to the red team but then still tries to access files he has specifically been locked out of after telling Merc that he is going.
I am no IT geek nor security wizard but i would have thought that in the last 5 years (if not since 2008...) the second any employee with a computer on site tells you that they are off to pastures new they are reassigned, access restricted to the bare minimum and the last 12 months of their computer history checked in detail to ensure no unauthorised release of information.
sirtyro said:
So, has Ferrari already seen the information?! It would be highly hypocritical considering what they accused Mclaren of in 2008.
The article doesn't suggest any wrong doing from Ferrari, although had this slipped through the Mercedes net you like to hope Ferrari would of flagged this up with the FIA as a potential situation should he of offered them the info, up to now Ferrari aren't implicated, should further investigations show he's already handed over some or all of what he illegally downloaded then I would imagine a total exclusion from the 2016 season, I wonder if that's why Ferrari and particularly vettel were so confident in beating merc next year?The autosport version sounds quite damning.....
In a High Court filing, revealed by Bloomberg and seen by Autosport, Benjamin Hoyle, due to join Ferrari at the start of next year, is being sued by Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains (HPP).
HPP is demanding Hoyle, who was employed in December 2012 as one of four team leaders in the company's F1 engineering department, be denied joining Ferrari or another F1 team until after the conclusion of the 2016 F1 season.
HPP is also demanding Hoyle hand over all documents relating to the matter, be served an injunction preventing him from using any information, as well as pay costs relating to investigation work carried out, compensation and legal fees.
Hoyle served notice on his contract, due for expiry at the end of this month, in May 2014, soon after which HPP became aware he intended to join Ferrari.
In April 16 this year Hoyle was informed, both verbally and via letter, he would be assigned to non-F1 projects, switching over to Mercedes' DTM programme, as HPP "wished to manage the intellectual property" he was exposed to.
Hoyle was provided with a new, wiped-clean laptop, email address and log-in details, denying him access to anything related to F1, and HPP restricted the areas of the building to which he was allowed.
HPP claims after this date, and prior to September 24 and after employing expert forensic computer analysts, Hoyle removed hardcopy documents containing confidential F1 information.
It is alleged Hoyle also searched for and saved on a laptop confidential F1 information stored on HPP's servers that included: a race report from this year's Hungarian Grand Prix; mileage and damage data relating to HPP's F1 engines from this season up until September 14, and files containing the code to decrypt raw race data files.
It is further alleged Hoyle also saved files related to the compressor performance of HPP's F1 engines, along with encrypted raw data files containing very detailed data about engine performance used to produce race reports.
The information was also apparently saved on Hoyle's personal mobile phone, micro SD cards, a tablet and an external hard drive.
Hoyle is also believed to have uploaded a confidential F1 document to an external website, as well as "read, reviewed, looked at or otherwise gained access to confidential F1 information".
HPP further claims Hoyle took "anti-forensic steps to conceal the fact he had saved" such information to his laptop, such as deleting files, running a disk fragmenter programme, and copying large numbers of innocuous files to 'fill' the hard drive, so overwriting any deleted material.
All of the above actions breach numerous clauses in Hoyle's contract, with HPP claiming they "were calculated to destroy or seriously damage the relationship of trust and confidence between the parties without reasonable or proper cause".
In particular, HPP claim that due to Hoyle's "unlawful conduct" both he and Ferrari "have gained an unlawful advantage
In a High Court filing, revealed by Bloomberg and seen by Autosport, Benjamin Hoyle, due to join Ferrari at the start of next year, is being sued by Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains (HPP).
HPP is demanding Hoyle, who was employed in December 2012 as one of four team leaders in the company's F1 engineering department, be denied joining Ferrari or another F1 team until after the conclusion of the 2016 F1 season.
HPP is also demanding Hoyle hand over all documents relating to the matter, be served an injunction preventing him from using any information, as well as pay costs relating to investigation work carried out, compensation and legal fees.
Hoyle served notice on his contract, due for expiry at the end of this month, in May 2014, soon after which HPP became aware he intended to join Ferrari.
In April 16 this year Hoyle was informed, both verbally and via letter, he would be assigned to non-F1 projects, switching over to Mercedes' DTM programme, as HPP "wished to manage the intellectual property" he was exposed to.
Hoyle was provided with a new, wiped-clean laptop, email address and log-in details, denying him access to anything related to F1, and HPP restricted the areas of the building to which he was allowed.
HPP claims after this date, and prior to September 24 and after employing expert forensic computer analysts, Hoyle removed hardcopy documents containing confidential F1 information.
It is alleged Hoyle also searched for and saved on a laptop confidential F1 information stored on HPP's servers that included: a race report from this year's Hungarian Grand Prix; mileage and damage data relating to HPP's F1 engines from this season up until September 14, and files containing the code to decrypt raw race data files.
It is further alleged Hoyle also saved files related to the compressor performance of HPP's F1 engines, along with encrypted raw data files containing very detailed data about engine performance used to produce race reports.
The information was also apparently saved on Hoyle's personal mobile phone, micro SD cards, a tablet and an external hard drive.
Hoyle is also believed to have uploaded a confidential F1 document to an external website, as well as "read, reviewed, looked at or otherwise gained access to confidential F1 information".
HPP further claims Hoyle took "anti-forensic steps to conceal the fact he had saved" such information to his laptop, such as deleting files, running a disk fragmenter programme, and copying large numbers of innocuous files to 'fill' the hard drive, so overwriting any deleted material.
All of the above actions breach numerous clauses in Hoyle's contract, with HPP claiming they "were calculated to destroy or seriously damage the relationship of trust and confidence between the parties without reasonable or proper cause".
In particular, HPP claim that due to Hoyle's "unlawful conduct" both he and Ferrari "have gained an unlawful advantage
Edited by Doink on Tuesday 8th December 16:31
Jasandjules said:
suffolk009 said:
There is a precedent. But I think it unlikely.
Indeed. Is it that Ferrari International Assistance is unlikely to do anything detrimental to Ferrari?!?!I am not quite of the tin foil hat lot but i do have to say that there appears to be one common factor in all of these cases that have come to the mainstream attention. One legal entity does seem to always be involved in it somewhere.
Doink said:
The autosport version sounds quite damning.....
Engineers have taken information from one team to another for years, certainly since I've been interested in the sport. If anything it has made it more competitive, with less well financed teams being able to play catch-up. Taking information from the leader in the field to its nearest rival is not quite so easy to excuse but hardly unique.This is different to Stepneygate as there he and Coughlan hawked the Ferrari up and down the pitlane looking for a buyer. Here, there seems to be a suggestion of complicity by Ferrari, although obviously not a requirement - that they would never do, on the use to the information.
I wonder if Ferrari will cooperate by allowing the FIA full access to all their computers and staff?
One nasty aspect of this - if I've read it correctly - is that it seems that Merc is trying to bankrupt Hoyle. Perhaps it would have been better to go for discipline in the expectation that Hoyle would be banned from the sport for a season.
Derek Smith said:
Engineers have taken information from one team to another for years, certainly since I've been interested in the sport. If anything it has made it more competitive, with less well financed teams being able to play catch-up. Taking information from the leader in the field to its nearest rival is not quite so easy to excuse but hardly unique.
This is different to Stepneygate as there he and Coughlan hawked the Ferrari up and down the pitlane looking for a buyer. Here, there seems to be a suggestion of complicity by Ferrari, although obviously not a requirement - that they would never do, on the use to the information.
I wonder if Ferrari will cooperate by allowing the FIA full access to all their computers and staff?
One nasty aspect of this - if I've read it correctly - is that it seems that Merc is trying to bankrupt Hoyle. Perhaps it would have been better to go for discipline in the expectation that Hoyle would be banned from the sport for a season.
Some good points there Derek.This is different to Stepneygate as there he and Coughlan hawked the Ferrari up and down the pitlane looking for a buyer. Here, there seems to be a suggestion of complicity by Ferrari, although obviously not a requirement - that they would never do, on the use to the information.
I wonder if Ferrari will cooperate by allowing the FIA full access to all their computers and staff?
One nasty aspect of this - if I've read it correctly - is that it seems that Merc is trying to bankrupt Hoyle. Perhaps it would have been better to go for discipline in the expectation that Hoyle would be banned from the sport for a season.
On the last one, I hadn't really thought of that but unless he has been extremely well paid it is likely that Mercedes legal fees could well bankrupt him. Although potentially they are saying that to see if Ferrari offer to pay them on his behalf which would, of course, implicate them in the theft of data.
Or taken a leaf out of Bernie's book of negotiation, demand the world then meet halfway which was exactly where you wanted to be anyway with the others thinking they got a good deal, merc don't need the money they can afford to pay their own legal fees, maybe they'll use that as a bargaining tool in return for Hoyle agreeing not to take any role at any team for 2016?
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