Would a modern day F1 car beat a 10 or 12 year old one?

[red_slr]

It amazes me they are so fast in 2016 TBH with all the fluff they have to haul round and how complex the engines, sorry power units, are. Components have to generally last several races. Much tougher.

Be interesting to see how they go next year.

[dc2rr07]

jamiebae said:

Bahrain qualifying results:

2004 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:30.139
2005 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:29.848
2006 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:31.431
2007 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:31.359

2015 Lewis Hamilton Mercedes 1:32.571
2016 Lewis Hamilton Mercedes 1:29.493

So it's pretty close between today and 2005 it appears.

That's a good example to use as we all know that when the cars do get quicker the rules change to slow them down again, otherwise the circuits would be unsafe to drive.

[Krikkit]

Catalunya would be a better example for comparisons year-on-year, as they're not tracks dominated by power like Austria and Monza.

[MrBarry123]

Thankyou4calling said:

All I wanted to know was a simple answer to a simple question. On the same track would a 2016 (or 2006 2/3/4/5/6) car be the fastest.

Use whatever tyres they used then and now, whatever engine, whatever driver aids.

Thanks

I was quite interested in the answer to this too but PistonHeads delivers again i.e. instead of people just answering the question, they criticise the question; presumably because the answer isn't to their liking!?

My guess is that the vast majority of PHers were't ever very good at reading comprehension tests during their younger years!

[Some Gump]

Dr Z said:

Went to the archive and dug out some data for the Temple of Speed, Monza.

Below is a table with the average speed (km/h) in which a race distance was completed by the race winner and next to it, the pole lap speed. The fourth column is the difference between the 'ultimate pace' as registered in Qualifying and the race pace.

Year	Race average speed	Pole lap Speed	Difference
2001	239.321	253.66	14.34
2002	241.334	259.83	18.49
2003	247.835	257.58	9.75
2004	244.620	260.40	15.77
2005	247.346	257.86	10.51
2006	246.062	255.94	9.88
2007	245.990	254.34	8.35
2009	241.243	248.08	6.83
2010	241.092	254.44	13.35
2011	234.602	253.48	18.87
2012	231.176	248.24	17.07
2013	234.505	249.00	14.49
2014	232.684	247.95	15.27
2015	236.141	250.07	13.93

If you want ultimate speed, the 2015 Mercedes ranks only 12th fastest, so you have a choice of pole sitting cars from 2001-2007 but your best bet is a Ferrari F2004.

If you want a car that completed a GP distance the fastest, you go with the Ferrari F2003-GA. Here again you have 11 cars pre-dating the 2015 Mercedes that are faster.

I found it interesting that the 2009 double diffuser cars had the least difference between their race pace and ultimate pace (6.83 km/h), compared to the 2012 cars or indeed the 2002 cars! I wonder if people were complaining that the cars were several seconds off qualifying pace in the races in 2002, as they do now!

Not goin head to head with the good dr on stats - but do the refuel era times include the pit stop times? Seems only fair to have that included - refuel era was nowhere near 2.7s stops.

[Dr Z]

Some Gump said:

Not goin head to head with the good dr on stats - but do the refuel era times include the pit stop times? Seems only fair to have that included - refuel era was nowhere near 2.7s stops.

Yes, pit stop times included. I excluded safety car laps for 2007 and 2011, adding the rest of the laps together for the average speed for those years.

Krikkit said:

Catalunya would be a better example for comparisons year-on-year, as they're not tracks dominated by power like Austria and Monza.

Catalunya had a chicane put in before the pit straight from 2007, so direct comparisons are not possible.

[e8_pack]

Your not comparing cars, your comparing rules at the end of the day. So I'm not really sure what the point is.

[Dr Z]

e8_pack said:

Your not comparing cars, your comparing rules at the end of the day. So I'm not really sure what the point is.

I believe essentially that was the question the OP was asking.

[irocfan]

knowing the square root of dick all about F1...

where would all the ground-effect era cars figure these days (albeit on modern rubber)

[Evolved]

jamiebae said:

Bahrain qualifying results:

2004 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:30.139
2005 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:29.848
2006 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:31.431
2007 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:31.359

2015 Lewis Hamilton Mercedes 1:32.571
2016 Lewis Hamilton Mercedes 1:29.493

So it's pretty close between today and 2005 it appears.

Which is a massive improvement given the drop in cylinder count, engine size and tyre quality.

[GroundEffect]

The lap times shown are not by any means the true story.

• 2003-2005 qualifying included first stint race fuel, adding probably 0.75-1 to the pole times.

• Current cars in qualifying are as powerful as any F1 cars outside of the couple of years in the 80s they went mad.

[vournikas]

irocfan said:

knowing the square root of dick all about F1...

where would all the ground-effect era cars figure these days (albeit on modern rubber)

I'm not sure we'll ever know, as the tracks the GE cars raced on are fundamentally different from those raced today (even those same tracks that are still used currently).

For example, the Monaco of 1978 is a different animal altogether compared to today's track. Similarly Monza and Imola and Silverstone.

[e8_pack]

Dr Z said:

e8_pack said:

Your not comparing cars, your comparing rules at the end of the day. So I'm not really sure what the point is.

I believe essentially that was the question the OP was asking.

Seeing as the 2004 cars hold most of the lap records (as i recall). I suppose they are the fastest. The simple reason being - they were allowed to be.

[amgmcqueen]

What happened to the car's being 5-6 seconds a lap quicker then...?

[mcholeboy_59]

amgmcqueen said:

What happened to the car's being 5-6 seconds a lap quicker then...?

5/6, really? that's outrageous.. i thought it was 3ish seconds they were on about before the season started.

[rdjohn]

I think the numbers are only one part of the equation.

I have watched F1 since 1977 when Hunt and Lauda were the hot properties, much like a Lewis and Max are now.

But the time that seemed to be the pinnacle to me were 2007 and 2008 when Lewis was the rookie taking on the established Alonso with a very competitive Ferrari equal, or better on tracks that favoured them. Many of those aspects have been evident this year, but the big difference is average lap speed.

At that time, refuelling allowed the cars to be driven near flat-out for most of the race. Yesterday, we had Seb saying that at the start of the 2nd stint, he needed to save fuel. No doubt, had he not been saving fuel, he would have been driving to deltas to keep the tyres alive, or selecting slower engine modes to save engine life.

Back in the day, we have had drivers saving tyres, because changing them in a pitstop was not possible, but teams were 6-people plus WAGs, that is not the case now. Likewise, saving fuel has been prevailant in the past, but to save unwanted weight rather than just make it to the finish line.

The qualities that F1 now embraces are much better exploited in WEC racing, but big fields and different classes are also there to provide plenty of track action for spectators.

It is now easier to watch hard fought races in the lower formulas. That simple fact prevents F1 being the pinnacle of motorsport in the current era. Only 10 teams - 20 cars, are willing to invest in the sport, but there are probably 5 divisions within that small group.

On the positive side, I think Ross Brawn gets this basic fact, so, hopefully, in 2021, things might change for the better. The technology of the cars is an important aspect, but a team with 1000 well-paid engineers, will always be more successful that a team with a budget for a mere 250 engineers.

In this respect, I believe that Force India deserve a “team of the year” award. Unlike Williams, they employ drivers with potential and spend their limited resources for the best bang for their limited bucks.