Lewis Hamilton

[HustleRussell]

As I said earlier, that pole lap and the weekend as a whole was a Hamilton masterclass- however it would seem a bit ambitious to attempt to brand Hamilton the 'best wet weather driver evaar' based on it.

I think he is among the two or three best on the current grid whatever the conditions which is praise indeed in present company.

A lot was made of Verstappen's drive in Brazil at the time too, and of course my eyes were on stalks whenever he was on the screen... passing his team mate (who is no slouch) around the outside in that fast left-hander was incredible. That said, his mega save joining the start / finish straight was almost as much luck as it was judgment if you ask me, and a more experienced driver probably wouldn't find himself perpendicular to the track at over 100mph in the first place (Massa excepted). Hamilton had no such moment.

Comparing either driver though, with their endlessly configurable fuel, throttle, gearbox maps, their seamless shift gearboxes, their selection of pre-heated wet tyres, their literal tons of downforce, the almost infallible safety of their 720kg protective cell, the smoothness and the drainage of the 10m wide FIA category 'A' racing circuit, their acres of run-off fringed by techpro fringed by tyres fringed by ARMCO… indeed comparing any modern driver with one from ‘back in the day’ is impossible. I’m with Murray Walker on this.

[LDN]

Speaking to Damon Hill about this very matter at a do yonks ago; he said that Hamilton was one of the few modern era drivers that could have / would have thrived in the olden days. Alonso was another. No mention of Vettel.

[wedgeinald]

LDN said:

Speaking to Damon Hill about this very matter at a do yonks ago; he said that Hamilton was one of the few modern era drivers that could have / would have thrived in the olden days. Alonso was another. No mention of Vettel.

I would agree with that, Hamilton has a 'natural talent' that has been honed through karting etc, when he did his top gear lap and did so well, even he didn't know how he'd managed some of it as it came naturally to him. The driving in the wet comes from that talent and his time in karts as a young child.

I feel that Nigel Mansell had a similar talent, evidenced by the high speed blow out in Adelaide, how he held that car in a straight line is beyond me, and I think even the latest F1 drivers would struggle to manage that.

Vettel is a good driver, but seems reluctant to see/admit when he gets it wrong. It seems that in his eyes he is always perfect (I chatted to someone about this recently and they said 'Hamilton was like that a bit at the start') but it seems to me that he is just arrogant. I hoping that this season with some of what has happened that might be starting to change.

I think the early era guys were certainly braver and needed to be, in a sport where you could expect to see serious crashes and probably deaths every season.

Modern cars are so much safer despite the increased speed, even a 'big off' you can now expect most of the time to 'walk away from' it is still a dangerous sport but safety is vastly better than it was in the past.

[anonymous-user]

Hungrymc said:

37chevy said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

But how can anyone state any driver from the modern era is great in the wet when they don't even go out when their is a hint of a puddle.

Totally different now.

Didn't take long for you to come back.

Yes it is totally different now. Modern cars are faster, more reliant on downforce rather than mechanical grip, modern circuits don't have a crown in the tarmac so the water ponds more. Trying to compare eras is utterly pointless.

I really don't like the comparisons across different eras. The difference in cars and tyres is hard to get your head around. Jim Clark will have been managing something around 200bhp, 450Kg, 5 speed manual (God knows what tyres?), no Aero.....Current car, 700Kg? 1000bhp? all the elec systems to manage. I'm not sure a driver who shines in one would necessarily shine in the other. BUT Jim Clark is and will always be a great, and Hamilton is well on his way to being one.

I think I'd do a better job of setting a wet lap time in a Lotus 25 than a 2017 Merc....
Am equally sure I'd rather have an off on a modern circuit in a 2017 merc than a Lotus 25 back in 1963.

Jimmy drove pretty much anything with wheels, he was brilliant no matter what it was.

His last F1 car weighed about 500Kg and had 415BHP

[Hungrymc]

jsf said:

Jimmy drove pretty much anything with wheels, he was brilliant no matter what it was.

His last F1 car weighed about 500Kg and had 415BHP

No disputing Clark's status.
And you can't dispute that driving a current F1 car is very different from exploiting a none aero car in the 60s? Trying to across era is pointless and impossible - that's not me claiming any modern driver is better, it's just different and we'll never really be able to compare with anything other than opinion.

[C70R]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Just over a week

How long do you think until the next tantrum and flounce?

[anonymous-user]

wedgeinald said:

I would agree with that, Hamilton has a 'natural talent' that has been honed through karting etc, when he did his top gear lap and did so well, even he didn't know how he'd managed some of it as it came naturally to him. The driving in the wet comes from that talent and his time in karts as a young child.

I feel that Nigel Mansell had a similar talent, evidenced by the high speed blow out in Adelaide, how he held that car in a straight line is beyond me, and I think even the latest F1 drivers would struggle to manage that.

Vettel is a good driver, but seems reluctant to see/admit when he gets it wrong. It seems that in his eyes he is always perfect (I chatted to someone about this recently and they said 'Hamilton was like that a bit at the start') but it seems to me that he is just arrogant. I hoping that this season with some of what has happened that might be starting to change.

I think the early era guys were certainly braver and needed to be, in a sport where you could expect to see serious crashes and probably deaths every season.

Modern cars are so much safer despite the increased speed, even a 'big off' you can now expect most of the time to 'walk away from' it is still a dangerous sport but safety is vastly better than it was in the past.

?? Vettel has just as long and successful a record in karts as Hamilton. Arguably better, just as in cars.

[paulguitar]

REALIST123 said:

wedgeinald said:

I would agree with that, Hamilton has a 'natural talent' that has been honed through karting etc, when he did his top gear lap and did so well, even he didn't know how he'd managed some of it as it came naturally to him. The driving in the wet comes from that talent and his time in karts as a young child.

I feel that Nigel Mansell had a similar talent, evidenced by the high speed blow out in Adelaide, how he held that car in a straight line is beyond me, and I think even the latest F1 drivers would struggle to manage that.

Vettel is a good driver, but seems reluctant to see/admit when he gets it wrong. It seems that in his eyes he is always perfect (I chatted to someone about this recently and they said 'Hamilton was like that a bit at the start') but it seems to me that he is just arrogant. I hoping that this season with some of what has happened that might be starting to change.

I think the early era guys were certainly braver and needed to be, in a sport where you could expect to see serious crashes and probably deaths every season.

Modern cars are so much safer despite the increased speed, even a 'big off' you can now expect most of the time to 'walk away from' it is still a dangerous sport but safety is vastly better than it was in the past.

?? Vettel has just as long and successful a record in karts as Hamilton. Arguably better, just as in cars.

Did Vettel not get beaten by Hamilton and Di Resta when they were in the same series?

[Sa Calobra]

Halmyre said:

cuprabob said:

LDN said:

cuprabob said:

Once again I would like to nominate Jackie Stewart in the 1968 German Grand Prix
https://youtu.be/fgd6F-i0JTs

Don't get me wrong Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton are brilliant but this takes the biscuit in my opinion.

Great vid; love the commentary; just takes you to another era instantly !

What it doesn't say is that Jackie Stewart won by over 4 mins from Graham Hill

Another amazing (partially) wet performance was Jim Clark at Spa in 1963. He lapped everyone up to second place and won by 5 minutes. One of the other drivers said of Clark "it's as if he was in a different race", or words to that effect.

How can you compare Jackie Stewart? If Lewis turned his car to the max and didn't have to worry about gearbox etc change penalties he'd easily do something similar. As soon as the cars are simplified again we'll stop seeing sandbagging.

[anonymous-user]

C70R said:

How long do you think until the next tantrum and flounce?

SKY F1 is cancelled so it will be very unlikely

[paulguitar]

paulguitar said:

REALIST123 said:

wedgeinald said:

I would agree with that, Hamilton has a 'natural talent' that has been honed through karting etc, when he did his top gear lap and did so well, even he didn't know how he'd managed some of it as it came naturally to him. The driving in the wet comes from that talent and his time in karts as a young child.

I feel that Nigel Mansell had a similar talent, evidenced by the high speed blow out in Adelaide, how he held that car in a straight line is beyond me, and I think even the latest F1 drivers would struggle to manage that.

Vettel is a good driver, but seems reluctant to see/admit when he gets it wrong. It seems that in his eyes he is always perfect (I chatted to someone about this recently and they said 'Hamilton was like that a bit at the start') but it seems to me that he is just arrogant. I hoping that this season with some of what has happened that might be starting to change.

I think the early era guys were certainly braver and needed to be, in a sport where you could expect to see serious crashes and probably deaths every season.

Modern cars are so much safer despite the increased speed, even a 'big off' you can now expect most of the time to 'walk away from' it is still a dangerous sport but safety is vastly better than it was in the past.

?? Vettel has just as long and successful a record in karts as Hamilton. Arguably better, just as in cars.

Did Vettel not get beaten by Hamilton and Di Resta when they were in the same series?

Further to that, I just had a look at the stats to remind myself... Vettel and Hamilton indeed competed together in the F3 Euro series in 2005. Hamilton won 16 of the 20 races but lost one result on a technical infringement.

Vettel did not win any races.

Hamilton won the title, Vettel was 5th.


The next year while Hamilton was winning the GP2 title, Vettel lost the F3 Euro series title to his team mate, Paul Di Resta.

[LDN]

paulguitar said:

Further to that, I just had a look at the stats to remind myself... Vettel and Hamilton indeed competed together in the F3 Euro series in 2005. Hamilton won 16 of the 20 races but lost one result on a technical infringement.

Vettel did not win any races.

Hamilton won the title, Vettel was 5th.


The next year while Hamilton was winning the GP2 title, Vettel lost the F3 Euro series title to his team mate, Paul Di Resta.

Yes; Hamilton has been stellar from day dot. Honestly; he'll be looked back on as a true legend; up there with the top tier legends of racing.

[G321]

paulguitar said:

Further to that, I just had a look at the stats to remind myself... Vettel and Hamilton indeed competed together in the F3 Euro series in 2005. Hamilton won 16 of the 20 races but lost one result on a technical infringement.

Vettel did not win any races.

Hamilton won the title, Vettel was 5th.


The next year while Hamilton was winning the GP2 title, Vettel lost the F3 Euro series title to his team mate, Paul Di Resta.

I was there when he won the title in 2005. The race was at Zandvoort supporting the DTM, the 2 races started with Hamilton retiring at the first corner after colliding with his team mate (Adrian Sutil) he then went on to win the second taking the title. Had a chat with him in the paddock between the 2 races and he came across as a nice kid

[anonymous-user]

paulguitar said:

Hamilton has done races in very wet conditions, Silverstone 2008, Japan 2007 and so on, so I think we can judge him on those. What the future holds from here on might be different though.

I was at both those races and watching him in the wet was a sight to behold. Certainly his car control skills on a slippery track are up there with Schumacher and Senna in my book and those of Paddy Lowe btw!

[Halmyre]

Sa Calobra said:

Halmyre said:

cuprabob said:

LDN said:

cuprabob said:

Once again I would like to nominate Jackie Stewart in the 1968 German Grand Prix
https://youtu.be/fgd6F-i0JTs

Don't get me wrong Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton are brilliant but this takes the biscuit in my opinion.

Great vid; love the commentary; just takes you to another era instantly !

What it doesn't say is that Jackie Stewart won by over 4 mins from Graham Hill

Another amazing (partially) wet performance was Jim Clark at Spa in 1963. He lapped everyone up to second place and won by 5 minutes. One of the other drivers said of Clark "it's as if he was in a different race", or words to that effect.

How can you compare Jackie Stewart?

You're quite right. There is no comparison.

[robbom3]

paulguitar said:

Further to that, I just had a look at the stats to remind myself... Vettel and Hamilton indeed competed together in the F3 Euro series in 2005. Hamilton won 16 of the 20 races but lost one result on a technical infringement.

Vettel did not win any races.

Hamilton won the title, Vettel was 5th.


The next year while Hamilton was winning the GP2 title, Vettel lost the F3 Euro series title to his team mate, Paul Di Resta.

I'd say that in his early F1 career, Vettel was an average talent, who happened to fall into possibly the most dominant F1 car in the modern era. Even then, he only narrowly beat Mark Webber to his first title, and no one is hailing Webber as one of the all time greats. Over the course of his career so far, Vettel has undoubtedly gotten a lot better, but IMHO he doesn't have the natural talent of a Hamilton, or an Alonso. I also agree that Vettel thinks he's right all the time, even when he is clearly at fault. That's a shame, and will potentially spoil his legacy. I'd love to see him in the same car as Hamilton or Alonso, or even Ricciardo or Verstappen, but it'll never happen as he knows he'd be made to look very second best. I did expect Kimi to give him a lot harder time than he has, which is disappointing.

[johnxjsc1985]

I think Vettel did have a huge advantage at Red Bull but if that wasn't the case surely his talent would have won him further titles by now.
ON balance the discussion comparing the likes of Stewart and Hamilton is a difficult comparison because I think the drivers had more influence over results in Stewarts day than Hamilton or Vettel has now because of advances in technology.

[hairyben]

robbom3 said:

I'd say that in his early F1 career, Vettel was an average talent, who happened to fall into possibly the most dominant F1 car in the modern era. Even then, he only narrowly beat Mark Webber to his first title, and no one is hailing Webber as one of the all time greats. Over the course of his career so far, Vettel has undoubtedly gotten a lot better, but IMHO he doesn't have the natural talent of a Hamilton, or an Alonso. I also agree that Vettel thinks he's right all the time, even when he is clearly at fault. That's a shame, and will potentially spoil his legacy. I'd love to see him in the same car as Hamilton or Alonso, or even Ricciardo or Verstappen, but it'll never happen as he knows he'd be made to look very second best. I did expect Kimi to give him a lot harder time than he has, which is disappointing.

He was in the same car as ricciardo for a year, more or less had his arse handed to him.

[HTP99]

hairyben said:

robbom3 said:

I'd say that in his early F1 career, Vettel was an average talent, who happened to fall into possibly the most dominant F1 car in the modern era. Even then, he only narrowly beat Mark Webber to his first title, and no one is hailing Webber as one of the all time greats. Over the course of his career so far, Vettel has undoubtedly gotten a lot better, but IMHO he doesn't have the natural talent of a Hamilton, or an Alonso. I also agree that Vettel thinks he's right all the time, even when he is clearly at fault. That's a shame, and will potentially spoil his legacy. I'd love to see him in the same car as Hamilton or Alonso, or even Ricciardo or Verstappen, but it'll never happen as he knows he'd be made to look very second best. I did expect Kimi to give him a lot harder time than he has, which is disappointing.

He was in the same car as ricciardo for a year, more or less had his arse handed to him.

Vettel and Webber were pretty evenly matched too when the blown diffuser was turned down.

[robbom3]

HTP99 said:

hairyben said:

robbom3 said:

I'd say that in his early F1 career, Vettel was an average talent, who happened to fall into possibly the most dominant F1 car in the modern era. Even then, he only narrowly beat Mark Webber to his first title, and no one is hailing Webber as one of the all time greats. Over the course of his career so far, Vettel has undoubtedly gotten a lot better, but IMHO he doesn't have the natural talent of a Hamilton, or an Alonso. I also agree that Vettel thinks he's right all the time, even when he is clearly at fault. That's a shame, and will potentially spoil his legacy. I'd love to see him in the same car as Hamilton or Alonso, or even Ricciardo or Verstappen, but it'll never happen as he knows he'd be made to look very second best. I did expect Kimi to give him a lot harder time than he has, which is disappointing.

He was in the same car as ricciardo for a year, more or less had his arse handed to him.

Vettel and Webber were pretty evenly matched too when the blown diffuser was turned down.

Yep, both good points, and why I don't think you'll ever see him with a truly competitive team mate again. For whatever reason, Kimi has not performed to the level I think was expected of him, and that suits Vettel down to the ground. Oh, and on the odd occasion where Kimi is beating him, Ferrari make him move over anyway. Vettel may not be the best driver on the grid, but he's one hell of a politician.