Lewis Hamilton

[M3ax]

Dr Z said:

Ah, so why is it ok for one to learn from others to better themselves and still be considered the "best", while it counts against another driver if they dare learn from someone else?

Hamilton is undoubtedly one of the quickest in the field, but he's not quite as adaptable as is often claimed. Nico beat him for raw qualifying pace over a season in 2014, when it was a complete clean sheet in terms of the type of cars they both had raced up until then. To date, Nico remains the only guy to outqualify Lewis @ Montreal. Now, how's that for a stat?

I'm not sure if there is another driver in history (maybe Fangio?) who has had top class kit for such a duration of their career as Hamilton. It plays a big part in how well one is perceived I think.

I recall the various discussions on here pre the 07 season where we were wondering if Hamilton had what it took to go head to head with the established order.for any sportsman to be at the pinnacle of their respective sport for 10 years or so is a remarkable achievement . Regardless of the quality of "kit". I'd like to see Danny Ric as his teammate though, that would pairs couple of the best imo .

[swisstoni]

Schumacher and particularly Vettel had untouchable machinery for the majority of their WDCs, together with patsies on the other side of the garage.
I'd class Hamilton well above Vettel for that alone.

[LDN]

Dr Z said:

Ah, so why is it ok for one to learn from others to better themselves and still be considered the "best", while it counts against another driver if they dare learn from someone else?

Hamilton is undoubtedly one of the quickest in the field, but he's not quite as adaptable as is often claimed. Nico beat him for raw qualifying pace over a season in 2014, when it was a complete clean sheet in terms of the type of cars they both had raced up until then. To date, Nico remains the only guy to outqualify Lewis @ Montreal. Now, how's that for a stat?

I'm not sure if there is another driver in history (maybe Fangio?) who has had top class kit for such a duration of their career as Hamilton. It plays a big part in how well one is perceived I think.

This is the oft repeated line of best kit. It could be said the flip side is also true; Vettel would have been nowhere without the best kit and blown diffusers - the same applies to any of the grid. However; it's when we look at the bigger picture that things emerge... and that's when we see how well someone is perceived by actual industry bods...

Which F1 driver has won a race every season of their F1 career? Even with a crap car.

Which driver outperformed their F1 peers when in equal kit; in lower formulae?

Which driver is peerless in horrid conditions? And not just great when the suns out...

Which driver won driver of the year (as voted by the team principals (and not a poll on PH )) even when he didn't win the WDC?

He won the GP2 championship on his first attempt; there's, I believe, only two others to have done that; Rosberg being one of them.

Hamilton is so well regarded for a reason. Simply; he's the best of the current crop.

[tankplanker]

Dr Z said:

Ah, so why is it ok for one to learn from others to better themselves and still be considered the "best", while it counts against another driver if they dare learn from someone else?

Pretty sure I didn't say that, learning from a coach off the field isn't comparable to copying the lines and setup from another driver in an actual race weekend. In both the case of Rosberg copying Shumey and Hamilton, and Hamilton copying Alonso, it isn't on for me personally, but I understand why the teams support/enable it.

Dr Z said:

Hamilton is undoubtedly one of the quickest in the field, but he's not quite as adaptable as is often claimed. Nico beat him for raw qualifying pace over a season in 2014, when it was a complete clean sheet in terms of the type of cars they both had raced up until then. To date, Nico remains the only guy to outqualify Lewis @ Montreal. Now, how's that for a stat?

I'm not sure if there is another driver in history (maybe Fangio?) who has had top class kit for such a duration of their career as Hamilton. It plays a big part in how well one is perceived I think.

Montreal 2014 both of Hamilton's Q3 laps were spoiled by him locking up, he'd have been significantly ahead otherwise. The pressure between the two was quite intense that season, as it was the season Rosberg cheated at Monaco. Rosberg out qualified Hamilton 12 to 7, take off Monaco, the brake failure related crash in Germany, and the fire in Hamilton's car in Hungary and Hamilton would be ahead Besides, who won the WDC with more than 40 points over Rosberg that year?

For the longest time Vettel has battled against the perception that the car earned him the win, particularly when Danny Ric came into the team and beat him soundly. I think that is unfair on Vettel as he is clearly a quick driver and even proven he can pull off some stunning over takes, but he seems shy of facing a top level driver in the same team.

Shumey as mentioned as had the best car on and off, or at least one with a konami code activated traction control system. Again that is doing him a big disservice.

Its also glossing over the complete dogs dinners of cars Hamilton has had for periods of his career.

[deadslow]

tankplanker said:

Its also glossing over the complete dogs dinners of cars Hamilton has had for periods of his career.

Alonso takes the (dog) biscuit for driving heaps. But he's never had his arse handed to him by a journeyman like Rosberg.

[tankplanker]

deadslow said:

Alonso takes the (dog) biscuit for driving heaps. But he's never had his arse handed to him by a journeyman like Rosberg.

I know, I'm gutted for Shumey, he should never have come back, comprehensively beaten by Rosberg.

[HustleRussell]

tankplanker said:

the complete dogs dinners of cars Hamilton has had for periods of his career.

I've a grudging appreciation for Hamilton but he's never had a complete dog's dinner of a car. The worst would've been a Whitmarsh era McLaren Mercedes or the 2013 Mercedes Mercedes, It could be argued that these cars were the 3rd best on the grid at worst?

A point to Alonso IMO, he's been in a complete turd of a McHonda for three seasons and he will absolutely beast it in the hope of few points.

[Norfolkit]

HustleRussell said:

, he's been in a complete turd of a McHonda for three seasons

Who's fault is that.

[tankplanker]

HustleRussell said:

I've a grudging appreciation for Hamilton but he's never had a complete dog's dinner of a car. The worst would've been a Whitmarsh era McLaren Mercedes or the 2013 Mercedes Mercedes, It could be argued that these cars were the 3rd best on the grid at worst?

A point to Alonso IMO, he's been in a complete turd of a McHonda for three seasons and he will absolutely beast it in the hope of few points.

Alonso made his bed, and frankly has been unprofessional with the radio messages. I completely get why he has been frustrated but that should have been kept behind closed doors. I actually rate Alonso over Hamilton, as Alonso has far far fewer off days than Hamilton, even if I do think Hamilton is marginally faster when Hamilton is properly on form as seen in 2007. Hamilton like Alonso has dragged out performances from cars that shouldn't have delivered. Hamilton has a reputation for being a bit of an arse to work with, but I'd suggest Alonso is worse, see 2007, McLaren Spygate, the crash @ Singapore, the end of days at Ferrari, the public slating of Honda.

The 2009 McLaren started off pretty poor, 2011 he was off the pace mostly because of the way he (didn't) look after his tyres but nobody was anywhere near the Redbull that year on pure pace. The 2012 McLaren was a great car, probably the best McLaren since 2008? But he had no end of reliability problems, he should have won the WDC that season (as could have Alonso). The 2013 Merc was pretty awful, but since then the Merc has been the class of the field till this year, and this year it is the best or 2nd best (3rd best Singapore in the dry I guess) since then depending on the track.

Obviously awful is subjective, hes never ran round in anything as bad as a 2017 McLaren Honda as he hasn't finished lower than 5th since being in F1, so yes, nothing worse than the 3rd or 4th best car.

[HustleRussell]

Norfolkit said:

HustleRussell said:

, he's been in a complete turd of a McHonda for three seasons

Who's fault is that.

tankplanker said:

Alonso made his bed

There's yer answer.

[Dr Z]

tankplanker said:

Dr Z said:

Ah, so why is it ok for one to learn from others to better themselves and still be considered the "best", while it counts against another driver if they dare learn from someone else?

Pretty sure I didn't say that, learning from a coach off the field isn't comparable to copying the lines and setup from another driver in an actual race weekend. In both the case of Rosberg copying Shumey and Hamilton, and Hamilton copying Alonso, it isn't on for me personally, but I understand why the teams support/enable it.

I think Nico's ability to set up a car is being underestimated here and it worked both ways. There has been occasions where it was Hamilton copying Rosberg's setup though. Last year's race at Barcelona is a more recent example.

I think this was also part of some of the games that went on between them. Rosberg certainly had an annoying hit rate in being able to absorb where his team mate was quicker and to go out and do it, I give you that. It's probably most unnatural for some drivers (I include Hamilton in this), but he seemed to be a natural at it!

tankplanker said:

Montreal 2014 both of Hamilton's Q3 laps were spoiled by him locking up, he'd have been significantly ahead otherwise. The pressure between the two was quite intense that season, as it was the season Rosberg cheated at Monaco. Rosberg out qualified Hamilton 12 to 7, take off Monaco, the brake failure related crash in Germany, and the fire in Hamilton's car in Hungary and Hamilton would be ahead Besides, who won the WDC with more than 40 points over Rosberg that year?

Double points!

LDN said:

Which F1 driver has won a race every season of their F1 career? Even with a crap car.

I think this is a popular myth. The so-called crap car only existed for half the season, during which Hamilton certainly did not perform miracles with it (but still quicker than his team mate). He had 3 points finishes and Kovalainen had 1. It wasn't quite the same car they drove from Nurburgring on. Hamilton won 2 races and had 3 podiums, while Kovalainen had six points finishes in the 2nd half. It has been a while since I looked at the stats, but this lift in driver performance is one of the most dramatic improvements seen in the history of the sport among drivers who finished in the top 6 at the end of the season. Needless to say, it's the car people!

Those were the days when McLaren could flex their 'car development' muscles.

Edited by Dr Z on Wednesday 20th September 18:39

[anonymous-user]

tankplanker said:

lonso made his bed, and frankly has been unprofessional with the radio messages. I completely get why he has been frustrated but that should have been kept behind closed doors. I actually rate Alonso over Hamilton, as Alonso has far far fewer off days than Hamilton, even if I do think Hamilton is marginally faster when Hamilton is properly on form as seen in 2007. Hamilton like Alonso has dragged out performances from cars that shouldn't have delivered. Hamilton has a reputation for being a bit of an arse to work with, but I'd suggest Alonso is worse, see 2007, McLaren Spygate, the crash @ Singapore, the end of days at Ferrari, the public slating of Honda.

The 2009 McLaren started off pretty poor, 2011 he was off the pace mostly because of the way he (didn't) look after his tyres but nobody was anywhere near the Redbull that year on pure pace. The 2012 McLaren was a great car, probably the best McLaren since 2008? But he had no end of reliability problems, he should have won the WDC that season (as could have Alonso). The 2013 Merc was pretty awful, but since then the Merc has been the class of the field till this year, and this year it is the best or 2nd best (3rd best Singapore in the dry I guess) since then depending on the track.

Obviously awful is subjective, hes never ran round in anything as bad as a 2017 McLaren Honda as he hasn't finished lower than 5th since being in F1, so yes, nothing worse than the 3rd or 4th best car.

I am sure Hamilton would have been a lot more vocal if he had been stuck in the McLaren Honda these last few years.

Vettel would have been even worse.

Personally I am amazed how reserved Alonso has been considering how terrible the car has been.

[LDN]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

I am sure Hamilton would have been a lot more vocal if he had been stuck in the McLaren Honda these last few years.

Vettel would have been even worse.

Personally I am amazed how reserved Alonso has been considering how terrible the car has been.

Agreed. If I were Alonso; I'd have burnt the garage down each race weekend out of sheer frustration.

[andygo]

Yes, i think he has been pretty restrained, but given the money he is on I'd have been happy if i had only got reverse gear to drive round in..

[Derek Smith]

HustleRussell said:

I've a grudging appreciation for Hamilton . . .

Why grudging? It seems, to me, a rather odd thing to say.

I think he is probably one of the all time greats and we're seeing him driver 20 weekends a year. He's not perfect, but no driver has been, is or probably will be. He's entertaining to watch, although perhaps there are others that occasionally make us gasp more. He seems pleasant enough. I think it would be an interesting evening around a dinner table with him.

He's not the only one on circuit who F1 would be the poorer if he left, but he is in the top three to my mind.

I appreciate Hamilton for making the races more interesting, in the same way I do for Verstappen. What's not to like?

Bemused of Burgess Hill

[glasgow mega snake]

I would respect your opinion much more if you were from Haywards Heath.

[paulguitar]

Derek Smith said:

HustleRussell said:

I've a grudging appreciation for Hamilton . . .

Why grudging? It seems, to me, a rather odd thing to say.

I think he is probably one of the all time greats and we're seeing him driver 20 weekends a year. He's not perfect, but no driver has been, is or probably will be. He's entertaining to watch, although perhaps there are others that occasionally make us gasp more. He seems pleasant enough. I think it would be an interesting evening around a dinner table with him.

He's not the only one on circuit who F1 would be the poorer if he left, but he is in the top three to my mind.

I appreciate Hamilton for making the races more interesting, in the same way I do for Verstappen. What's not to like?

Bemused of Burgess Hill

I totally agree Derek. I think when Lewis finally retires, F1 will be VERY much worse off for it. He has been a lightening bolt since arriving on the scene. I was a fan from when he was in Cadet Karts, and was a stunned spectator at Silverstone in 2006 as he embarrassed the entire field of drivers in identical GP2 machinery. I think he is one of the most talented drivers of all time.


The tattoos and clothes are not to everyones taste, and I suspect that this might be the issue for some folks. He seems a fundamentally decent chap to me, and that view is backed up from what I have heard from people who actually have met him.

[Blayney]

Hear, hear.

For me the races get less interesting if he DNFs. I'm left with Ricciardo and wishing Alonso and Sainz had better cars. Verstappen has wowed me but I'm not a fan.

[tankplanker]

Dr Z said:

I think Nico's ability to set up a car is being underestimated here and it worked both ways. There has been occasions where it was Hamilton copying Rosberg's setup though. Last year's race at Barcelona is a more recent example.

I think this was also part of some of the games that went on between them. Rosberg certainly had an annoying hit rate in being able to absorb where his team mate was quicker and to go out and do it, I give you that. It's probably most unnatural for some drivers (I include Hamilton in this), but he seemed to be a natural at it!

I agree, I gave Rosberg credit for that in a previous comment. It isn't just setup from Rosberg though, its the racing lines, braking zones, the lot that he was pulling across. Rosberg was far more competitive than Bottas has been so far, who seems to be going backwards as the car has been developed over the season.

I can't see Rosberg beating Hamilton without being the same team assuming equal cars, being able to copy setup/lines, being able to be a nasty st to your team mate (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-4611948/Nico-Rosberg-vicious-one-clashes-Hamilton.html), stealing his mechanics (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/nov/24/leiws-hamilton-mercedes-mechanics-nico-rosberg-abu-dhabi-grand-prix) just wouldn't work otherwise.

Dr Z]hehe Double points! said:

Lewis had been ahead in the championship from Rosberg's DNF in Singapore and Rosberg had a crap final race only finishing 14th. Lewis still beat Rosberg by the 40 points I mention as I'd already taken off the double points as I can't stand the concept, without them Lewis beat Rosberg by 67 points.

[deadslow]

tankplanker said:

I can't see Rosberg beating Hamilton without being the same team assuming equal cars, being able to copy setup/lines, being able to be a nasty st to your team mate (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-4611948/Nico-Rosberg-vicious-one-clashes-Hamilton.html)

Daily Mail reader is Hamilton fan ...shock