Lewis Hamilton

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Greeny

1,421 posts

260 months

Saturday 10th November 2018
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
Sa Calobra said:
sparta6 said:
cb1965 said:
Kraken said:
Many people in the industry believe Mercedes were developing a long time before the actual engine format was announced.
Like who? I think this is just one of those silly rumours that gets repeated until it's 'fact'. There is no way Mercedes were going to ply huge amounts of money into developing something before it was finalised. The truth is the only advantage they did have is they were better placed than the other manufacturers to develop such an engine due to the expertise within their organisation and have ended up doing a better job.
They certainly had mega Fatherland money available to pump into their British development team.

It's quite possible Merc were already going down this particular PU route for its road car development programme and had some crossover advantage into the mix.

maybe someone from Mercedes can chime in...
Rumour is if you are jealous and make things up someone along the line will buy it as gospel.
Interesting
Although I am not in the motor manufacturing business.
As a direct consequence there is zero jealousy of any car manufacturer.
Or driver?

Greeny

1,421 posts

260 months

Saturday 10th November 2018
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
Sa Calobra said:
sparta6 said:
cb1965 said:
Kraken said:
Many people in the industry believe Mercedes were developing a long time before the actual engine format was announced.
Like who? I think this is just one of those silly rumours that gets repeated until it's 'fact'. There is no way Mercedes were going to ply huge amounts of money into developing something before it was finalised. The truth is the only advantage they did have is they were better placed than the other manufacturers to develop such an engine due to the expertise within their organisation and have ended up doing a better job.
They certainly had mega Fatherland money available to pump into their British development team.

It's quite possible Merc were already going down this particular PU route for its road car development programme and had some crossover advantage into the mix.

maybe someone from Mercedes can chime in...
Rumour is if you are jealous and make things up someone along the line will buy it as gospel.
Interesting
Although I am not in the motor manufacturing business.
As a direct consequence there is zero jealousy of any car manufacturer.
Or driver?

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

55 months

Sunday 11th November 2018
quotequote all
Gaz. said:
You don’t half rewrite history a lot.
It has to be like this, F1 is such a dull facsimile of itself in this era that we can only hope to raise some excitement through discussions on various rules etc.



sparta6

3,698 posts

101 months

Sunday 11th November 2018
quotequote all
Greeny said:
sparta6 said:
Sa Calobra said:
sparta6 said:
cb1965 said:
Kraken said:
Many people in the industry believe Mercedes were developing a long time before the actual engine format was announced.
Like who? I think this is just one of those silly rumours that gets repeated until it's 'fact'. There is no way Mercedes were going to ply huge amounts of money into developing something before it was finalised. The truth is the only advantage they did have is they were better placed than the other manufacturers to develop such an engine due to the expertise within their organisation and have ended up doing a better job.
They certainly had mega Fatherland money available to pump into their British development team.

It's quite possible Merc were already going down this particular PU route for its road car development programme and had some crossover advantage into the mix.

maybe someone from Mercedes can chime in...
Rumour is if you are jealous and make things up someone along the line will buy it as gospel.
Interesting
Although I am not in the motor manufacturing business.
As a direct consequence there is zero jealousy of any car manufacturer.
Or driver?
Of any driver ? No.
Although I did find Mika Hakkinen uber cool and extradordinarily fast.
Following his terrible accident and head injury he seemed to get even faster !


Kraken

1,710 posts

201 months

Sunday 11th November 2018
quotequote all
cb1965 said:
Kraken said:
Many people in the industry believe Mercedes were developing a long time before the actual engine format was announced.
Like who? I think this is just one of those silly rumours that gets repeated until it's 'fact'. There is no way Mercedes were going to ply huge amounts of money into developing something before it was finalised. The truth is the only advantage they did have is they were better placed than the other manufacturers to develop such an engine due to the expertise within their organisation and have ended up doing a better job.
Well I'm not going to trawl back through all the various articles in the specialist motorsport press at the time but it was reported several times in respected magazines. The whole discussion of the world engine and what the FIA wanted and what the different teams wanted went on for a long time.

HighwayStar

4,277 posts

145 months

Sunday 11th November 2018
quotequote all
Kraken said:
cb1965 said:
Kraken said:
Many people in the industry believe Mercedes were developing a long time before the actual engine format was announced.
Like who? I think this is just one of those silly rumours that gets repeated until it's 'fact'. There is no way Mercedes were going to ply huge amounts of money into developing something before it was finalised. The truth is the only advantage they did have is they were better placed than the other manufacturers to develop such an engine due to the expertise within their organisation and have ended up doing a better job.
Well I'm not going to trawl back through all the various articles in the specialist motorsport press at the time but it was reported several times in respected magazines. The whole discussion of the world engine and what the FIA wanted and what the different teams wanted went on for a long time.
IIRC the engine being pushed was a 4 cyl but Merc and particularly Ferrari were not interested, Ferrari particular pointing out there was nothing in it for them. A 4 was a none starter, no connection to their road cars etc. A V6 will feature in their road cars as downsizing and hydridization comes into their line up.
The teams with power with push to shape the rules to their benefit.
When Bridgestone were the supplier the tyres were developed with Ferrari. Ferrari had bespoke tyres, the teams chose from those tyres!!!
There has been a period of stability in there rules, most teams haven’t been able to catch up with Merc. Ferrari have but we’ve seen, they couldn’t bring it home.

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

55 months

Sunday 11th November 2018
quotequote all

Derek Smith

45,676 posts

249 months

Sunday 11th November 2018
quotequote all
cb1965 said:
They certainly have that sort of expertise in the business and while the team maybe based and generally British they do lean on the parent company's engineering departments when necessary. Just as they did when they were powering McLaren. I think this is a far more likely explanation as for why Mercedes got it right faster than Ferrari or Renault.
I disagree that they had expertise. The V6 in my SLK went bang and it was due to a sintered metal balance shaft gear. If they can't make a gear last 1/3 the life of the car, the expert is not the word I'd use to describe their engineering dept.

I'm not bitter, despite losing around £5k on the duff engine.


sparta6

3,698 posts

101 months

Monday 12th November 2018
quotequote all
Lewis Vs Max could be one of the most enthralling seasons if the Honda can get close to Merc.
We might even get a 3 way battle with Le Clerc in the mix.

Sadly I don't think Bottas will offer much competition

37chevy

3,280 posts

157 months

Monday 12th November 2018
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
Lewis Vs Max could be one of the most enthralling seasons if the Honda can get close to Merc.
We might even get a 3 way battle with Le Clerc in the mix.

Sadly I don't think Bottas will offer much competition
you missed out Vettel and Gasly there...or don't you think they will offer much competition either?

LDN

8,911 posts

204 months

Monday 12th November 2018
quotequote all
37chevy said:
sparta6 said:
Lewis Vs Max could be one of the most enthralling seasons if the Honda can get close to Merc.
We might even get a 3 way battle with Le Clerc in the mix.

Sadly I don't think Bottas will offer much competition
you missed out Vettel and Gasly there...or don't you think they will offer much competition either?
Gasly might be a surprise ... but I think everyone feels that Leclerc might be a phenom. Vettel is bound to be in the mix. But we are starting to see a new generation finally coming through. I just hope Hamilton sticks about long enough to fight the young guns!

HorneyMX5

5,309 posts

151 months

Monday 12th November 2018
quotequote all
LDN said:
I just hope Hamilton sticks about long enough to fight the young guns!
He must surely have his sights set on MS's 7 now.

LDN

8,911 posts

204 months

Monday 12th November 2018
quotequote all
HorneyMX5 said:
LDN said:
I just hope Hamilton sticks about long enough to fight the young guns!
He must surely have his sights set on MS's 7 now.
I’d love it. Personally. But he’s achieved more than most already.

MS’s 7 would be the cherry on top.

E34-3.2

1,003 posts

80 months

Monday 12th November 2018
quotequote all
HorneyMX5 said:
He must surely have his sights set on MS's 7 now.
Will be good but the competition is getting much younger and hungrier.

StevieBee

12,925 posts

256 months

Monday 12th November 2018
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
cb1965 said:
Kraken said:
Many people in the industry believe Mercedes were developing a long time before the actual engine format was announced.
Like who? I think this is just one of those silly rumours that gets repeated until it's 'fact'. There is no way Mercedes were going to ply huge amounts of money into developing something before it was finalised. The truth is the only advantage they did have is they were better placed than the other manufacturers to develop such an engine due to the expertise within their organisation and have ended up doing a better job.
They certainly had mega Fatherland money available to pump into their British development team.

It's quite possible Merc were already going down this particular PU route for its road car development programme and had some crossover advantage into the mix.
Whilst some migration of road car development will have happened, it's impact would have been minimal. Future road car power has for some time been leaning ever more towards electric; fast rendering Hybrid obsolete. This is why Formula E is awash with manufacturers and Formula 1 is not. The bit of F1 that really interests the manufacturers relates to the recovery, storage and deployment of electric power so it would have been this that would have had road-car relevance and inputs.

Mercedes' advantage is rooted in them being the only team / manufacturer to design the engine architecture in such a way to separate the turbo from the compressor unit. This led to more power, more stored power, less turbo lag and less cooling meaning smaller side pods giving aero advantages. The homologation ruling meant that other teams were fixed to their engines for the whole of that first season. But it did not become apparent what Mercedes had done until halfway though the season - too late for the others to replicate for the following season. When the others did eventually launch their own interpretation of this, Mercedes had a two-year head start on understanding the technology and how to properly implement that technology. An advantage that remains - by an large - today.

So it really comes down to them designing the best solution, implementing with the greatest efficiency....and of course; Lewis Hamilton.

What will happen over the next couple of years is an levelling out of performance across the teams as they all get a better grip on what they are doing. The final season before the big rule changes will probably be a 'classic'....and the whole process will start again.






sparta6

3,698 posts

101 months

Monday 12th November 2018
quotequote all
37chevy said:
sparta6 said:
Lewis Vs Max could be one of the most enthralling seasons if the Honda can get close to Merc.
We might even get a 3 way battle with Le Clerc in the mix.

Sadly I don't think Bottas will offer much competition
you missed out Vettel and Gasly there...or don't you think they will offer much competition either?
Vettel could benefit from a year off biggrin

Gasly has not yet shone so brightly, but the potential seems to be there.


Deesee

8,455 posts

84 months

Wednesday 14th November 2018
quotequote all
Hamilton receiving the Fangio (5x WDC) trophy...

https://twitter.com/F1/status/1062393810955587584

LDN

8,911 posts

204 months

Wednesday 14th November 2018
quotequote all
Deesee said:
Hamilton receiving the Fangio (5x WDC) trophy...

https://twitter.com/F1/status/1062393810955587584
Nice touch for him to give them something in return.

sparta6

3,698 posts

101 months

Wednesday 14th November 2018
quotequote all
Deesee said:
Hamilton receiving the Fangio (5x WDC) trophy...

https://twitter.com/F1/status/1062393810955587584
Very nice.

That portrait of Fangio with tin helmet and goggles is a stark reminder of the incredible danger he faced !

MS 7 xWDC Trophy next...

LDN

8,911 posts

204 months

Wednesday 14th November 2018
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
Deesee said:
Hamilton receiving the Fangio (5x WDC) trophy...

https://twitter.com/F1/status/1062393810955587584
Very nice.

That portrait of Fangio with tin helmet and goggles is a stark reminder of the incredible danger he faced !
So true.

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