Lewis Hamilton
Discussion
euphoricmess said:
On Hamilton though I think he will never truly get the credit he perhaps deserves for three factors that are likely out of his control.
The first is that he has always been in a top car and never had that growth in the sport, the plucky underdog us brits like who goes on to win it, like Jenson etc.
The second is he always appears more of a brand than a personality, he has been trained for this and you rarely see a true character behind the racer, this could be his personality too, but it makes it harder to truly love.
And finally, the sport is on its arse. It is no longer enjoyable to watch, it no longer feels like the pinnacle of anything, it all feels too fake, too regulated and more about economy and driving within the limits than driving on them.
I think Lewis gets the credit deserved from the majority. Certainly those within the sport and most who watch generally recognizes his ability.The first is that he has always been in a top car and never had that growth in the sport, the plucky underdog us brits like who goes on to win it, like Jenson etc.
The second is he always appears more of a brand than a personality, he has been trained for this and you rarely see a true character behind the racer, this could be his personality too, but it makes it harder to truly love.
And finally, the sport is on its arse. It is no longer enjoyable to watch, it no longer feels like the pinnacle of anything, it all feels too fake, too regulated and more about economy and driving within the limits than driving on them.
Always in a top car must make him an under performer with his lack of titles? I’m surprised you think Button is held in higher regard generally, there are some, but I don’t think it the norm.
The brand point. Lewis seems to do a lot outside of the direct sight of F1 cameras. He has his other interests (music and fashion etc) and seems to enjoy time with fans and events that others would find a chore.
The sport is on its arse. Has been some fantastic racing this year. We don’t have a Prima Donna preventing his team mate from racing. Cars that are astonishing.
I think you may be growing to dislike it as the eras change. That’s totally fair enough and many do look back wistfully at previous periods (for me, it’s the 80’s that I most fondly remember).
I thought going subscription based or PPV in the UK would kill F1 here. It’s held up remarkably well in my eyes.
Bo_apex said:
vdn said:
Alonso also holds Hamilton in the highest regard and has said on numerous occasions that Hamilton is special; winning in sub par cars
Source link please.Hamilton had a sub-par car for the first half season in 2009.
https://www.racefans.net/2018/10/18/alonso-hamilto...
glazbagun said:
Bo_apex said:
vdn said:
Alonso also holds Hamilton in the highest regard and has said on numerous occasions that Hamilton is special; winning in sub par cars
Source link please.Hamilton had a sub-par car for the first half season in 2009.
https://www.racefans.net/2018/10/18/alonso-hamilto...
To be fair the second half of his statement doesn't confirm that Lewis can hustle a sub-par car to good results, and doesn't reflect the actuality of Hamilton's results in 2009 upto and including Silverstone. Maybe Alonso was interviewed after a glass of Sangria
Calling Clarkson a dunce is a fairly easy, lazy and dumb answer. The man writes better than most journalists out there if you know what you are talking about.
He is right, sadly for all you F1 fans, he hit the nail on the head. His facts were wrong and he was ranting, but cut that away and the general gist is spot on.
The public in general don't give a toss anymore.
You can sell that dump out every year all you like, that just benefits SIlverstone, not motorsport in general, people aren't as interested in it as they were even 10 years ago. They want new, drifting, WRX, off road, excitement. One god race a year doesn't make people watch it, pay tv, SKY, all adds up to no-one cares.
Other sports, as he says have moved heaven and earth to find new fans, F1 and motorsport has rigidly stuck itself to it's core and semi interested people have ALL left.
I can count 4 or 5 people in my small friends groups that used to watch a fair bit and now will actively turn it off to watch bikes, cricket, baseball, NBA, anything.
More choice means you have to fight for your position, F1 is utterly lazy, full of rich entitles pricks who think the world deserves to hear about their rotten racing, and in their own bubble they do.
Leave them to it, let it be its own little thing, like NASCAR. You wil all love it when Hammy retires and you can go watch him get burned by fat rednecks in a Chevy!
He is right, sadly for all you F1 fans, he hit the nail on the head. His facts were wrong and he was ranting, but cut that away and the general gist is spot on.
The public in general don't give a toss anymore.
You can sell that dump out every year all you like, that just benefits SIlverstone, not motorsport in general, people aren't as interested in it as they were even 10 years ago. They want new, drifting, WRX, off road, excitement. One god race a year doesn't make people watch it, pay tv, SKY, all adds up to no-one cares.
Other sports, as he says have moved heaven and earth to find new fans, F1 and motorsport has rigidly stuck itself to it's core and semi interested people have ALL left.
I can count 4 or 5 people in my small friends groups that used to watch a fair bit and now will actively turn it off to watch bikes, cricket, baseball, NBA, anything.
More choice means you have to fight for your position, F1 is utterly lazy, full of rich entitles pricks who think the world deserves to hear about their rotten racing, and in their own bubble they do.
Leave them to it, let it be its own little thing, like NASCAR. You wil all love it when Hammy retires and you can go watch him get burned by fat rednecks in a Chevy!
Different sports and different forms of racing exist for a reason - to appeal to different tastes. Don't like F1? Don't watch it. No F1 fan will care what you think should change for a sport you don't like.
Clarkson isn't an F1 fan and want's to see something that wouldn't be F1. To true F1 fans his opinions are worthless and irrelevant.
As for the MSM ignoring F1 - since when has the MSM been right about anything and given the right attention to the stories that matter? The MSM has an agenda that has been p!ssing off the open-minded public for years. Their audience is in freefall. No-one cares for their corrupt biased narrative anymore.
The internet is changing the public's perception of the world, where we can get our information and who, how and why we choose to watch and read. They can't deal with it. This makes me happy.
As for the British GP, the atmosphere was amazing, as usual. It was packed, as usual. No-one had a thought for the MSM, as usual.
Clarkson isn't an F1 fan and want's to see something that wouldn't be F1. To true F1 fans his opinions are worthless and irrelevant.
As for the MSM ignoring F1 - since when has the MSM been right about anything and given the right attention to the stories that matter? The MSM has an agenda that has been p!ssing off the open-minded public for years. Their audience is in freefall. No-one cares for their corrupt biased narrative anymore.
The internet is changing the public's perception of the world, where we can get our information and who, how and why we choose to watch and read. They can't deal with it. This makes me happy.
As for the British GP, the atmosphere was amazing, as usual. It was packed, as usual. No-one had a thought for the MSM, as usual.
Edited by mattikake on Sunday 21st July 12:18
To say Clarkson is not an F1 fan is a bit of a joke! Do you ever read any of his stuff?
And to be brutally honest, I can think of far cheaper ways to enjoy an atmosphere, I was about 20 miles away enjoying a far more relaxed, pleasant and competitive one!! Each to their own. You keep handing over your hundreds to billionaires and see what happens in 1 years, there will only be you left, paying 500 quid a ticket =, bless.
And to be brutally honest, I can think of far cheaper ways to enjoy an atmosphere, I was about 20 miles away enjoying a far more relaxed, pleasant and competitive one!! Each to their own. You keep handing over your hundreds to billionaires and see what happens in 1 years, there will only be you left, paying 500 quid a ticket =, bless.
Bo_apex said:
Maybe Alonso was interviewed after a glass of Sangria
Yeah, maybe not.Alonso has had immense respect for Hamilton since the very start. He knows, perhaps better than anyone, just how good Lewis is.
It must have been a mightly shock for him to have to deal with Hamilton in 2007, and I think there is massive mutual respect there.
Anyone with even a teeny amount of understanding of F1 knows that the driver can't compensate for a truly hopeless car very much. Just look at Alonso in the McLaren.
mattikake said:
Different sports and different forms of racing exist for a reason - to appeal to different tastes. Don't like F1? Don't watch it. No F1 fan will care what you think should change for a sport you don't like.
Clarkson isn't an F1 fan and want's to see something that wouldn't be F1. To true F1 fans his opinions are worthless and irrelevant.
As for the MSM ignoring F1 - since when has the MSM been right about anything and given the right attention to the stories that matter? The MSM has an agenda that has been p!ssing off the open-minded public for years. Their audience is in freefall. No-one cares for their corrupt biased narrative anymore.
The internet is changing the public's perception of the world, where we can get our information and who, how and why we choose to watch and read. They can't deal with it. This makes me happy.
As for the British GP, the atmosphere was amazing, as usual. It was packed, as usual. No-one had a thought for the MSM, as usual.
So every body else is wrong and only a true F1 fan knows! Clarkson isn't an F1 fan and want's to see something that wouldn't be F1. To true F1 fans his opinions are worthless and irrelevant.
As for the MSM ignoring F1 - since when has the MSM been right about anything and given the right attention to the stories that matter? The MSM has an agenda that has been p!ssing off the open-minded public for years. Their audience is in freefall. No-one cares for their corrupt biased narrative anymore.
The internet is changing the public's perception of the world, where we can get our information and who, how and why we choose to watch and read. They can't deal with it. This makes me happy.
As for the British GP, the atmosphere was amazing, as usual. It was packed, as usual. No-one had a thought for the MSM, as usual.
Edited by mattikake on Sunday 21st July 12:18
That's it keep your head buried in the sand.
The owners of F1 have all the figures, they are ones who are trying in small increments to try and make things a bit more exciting, yet facing resistance from the leading teams.
At least this lot a trying, and aren't purely driven by money like Ecclestone. Watching cars racing around a generic Tilke track to mostly empty stadiums isn't good for the sport.
Bo_apex said:
“When the car was dominating he delivered and won the championship. When the car was not good enough to win the championship he still put in the performances to show the talent.”
To be fair the second half of his statement doesn't confirm that Lewis can hustle a sub-par car to good results, and doesn't reflect the actuality of Hamilton's results in 2009 upto and including Silverstone. Maybe Alonso was interviewed after a glass of Sangria
Why did you not select the part of the quote that actually supports what you claim as incorrect? I suppose that is a silly question.To be fair the second half of his statement doesn't confirm that Lewis can hustle a sub-par car to good results, and doesn't reflect the actuality of Hamilton's results in 2009 upto and including Silverstone. Maybe Alonso was interviewed after a glass of Sangria
“I’m happy for him because he showed the talent from day one. He was able to win races when the car was there to win it but he was able to win races in some of the seasons that the car was not in the top of form like 2009 and things like that, he was still winning a couple of grands prix a year. It’s impressive and it’s now time to enjoy for him so I’m happy.”
mattikake said:
Clarkson isn't an F1 fan and want's to see something that wouldn't be F1. To true F1 fans his opinions are worthless and irrelevant.
He's most certainly a HUGE F1 fan. He's not the F1 geek that we are (think about it.. we're on a forum discussing it...) but for decades he has referenced watching the sport and his feelings towards it. He has also got to know several drivers well enough to convince them to appear on his shows, without even wearing their sponsors kit. It's not as if they need the money...He'w watched the sport his entire adult life, that's a fact. I acknowledge his particular brand of extreme solutions to the problems isn't particularly helpful for F1... But nonetheless, he is a fan and I think at the core shares many common frustrations with the rest of us.
RB Will said:
vdn said:
Hamilton is better than Prost IMO; he now has the calculated chess mentality of Prost but with the sheer speed and racecraft of the likes of Senna / MS, etc. Hamilton has grown into a hybrid of the best driver attributes; he used to rely more on pure speed and racecraft; but he's grown and seems to be growing further.
He is an amazing all rounder but I do wonder if the calculated chess mentality part is something he has at the moment just because he has the dominant car and knows it? So no point busting a gut, having a tight battle with someone for the sake of a couple of points when you know you are likely to win the next race anyway. You can afford a few races where you drop some points. He wasn't so calm and calculated when fighting for every point with Rosberg in 2016.Will be interesting to see if the Merc becomes less dominant or inferior to something else will Hamilton revert to being a bit more cut throat and take more chances.
In terms of chess mentality in race situations: Prost > Button > Schumacher > Alonso > Hamilton
TobyTR said:
History shows when Hamilton is rattled it's a different story - see Button and Rosberg.
He beat Button 2/1 and Rosberg 3/1.He also is massively improved even from his astonishing start in F1. He truly learns and grows. He's said himself the 2007 Hamilton would not have a hope in hell against the 2019 Hamilton.
He's the complete driver, a title winner at present almost without flaws.
paulguitar said:
He beat Button 2/1 and Rosberg 3/1.
He also is massively improved even from his astonishing start in F1. He truly learns and grows. He's said himself the 2007 Hamilton would not have a hope in hell against the 2019 Hamilton.
He's the complete driver, a title winner at present almost without flaws.
Got to agree 100%.He also is massively improved even from his astonishing start in F1. He truly learns and grows. He's said himself the 2007 Hamilton would not have a hope in hell against the 2019 Hamilton.
He's the complete driver, a title winner at present almost without flaws.
Most drivers get criticised for 'how they should improve'. Lewis? He just gets on with it and get's it done - there is no serious criticism of Lewis as a driver other than his occasional whinging - which is only detectable because we're far more likely to hear his radio messages than any other drivers... He has personally evolved at least as fast as the rest of the grid including the hot new talent that has emerged since.
It's a monumental feat to be the guy to beat after 12 years, the fact he's still capable of stunning the crowd (fastest lap at Silverstone..) is staggering. Other than growing occasional facial hair there is no sign in terms of F1 performance that he's aged at all.
Bo_apex said:
glazbagun said:
Bo_apex said:
vdn said:
Alonso also holds Hamilton in the highest regard and has said on numerous occasions that Hamilton is special; winning in sub par cars
Source link please.Hamilton had a sub-par car for the first half season in 2009.
https://www.racefans.net/2018/10/18/alonso-hamilto...
To be fair the second half of his statement doesn't confirm that Lewis can hustle a sub-par car to good results, and doesn't reflect the actuality of Hamilton's results in 2009 upto and including Silverstone. Maybe Alonso was interviewed after a glass of Sangria
You’re dreaming. Alonso holds Hamilton in the absolute highest regard. You also missed the other quotes where he went on to praise him further...
You’re an odd chap.
paulguitar said:
TobyTR said:
History shows when Hamilton is rattled it's a different story - see Button and Rosberg.
He beat Button 2/1 and Rosberg 3/1.He also is massively improved even from his astonishing start in F1. He truly learns and grows. He's said himself the 2007 Hamilton would not have a hope in hell against the 2019 Hamilton.
He's the complete driver, a title winner at present almost without flaws.
He's got very few weaknesses, but he's not the complete F1 driver like we've seen in the past. He has been rattled when up against other supreme F1 drivers
TobyTR said:
2016 wasn't that long ago... a complete F1 driver (like M.Schumacher) would not have lost to Rosberg that year, period. He was rattled and made a few mistakes that year
He's got very few weaknesses, but he's not the complete F1 driver like we've seen in the past. He has been rattled when up against other supreme F1 drivers
I think he has significantly improved since 2016. Plus, he still would have won the title that year save for an engine failure.He's got very few weaknesses, but he's not the complete F1 driver like we've seen in the past. He has been rattled when up against other supreme F1 drivers
In my view, he has already far surpassed the achievements of M Schumacher, on the grounds of never having had or asked for number one status at any time, and more importantly, not regularly having a total character failure on track.
paulguitar said:
TobyTR said:
2016 wasn't that long ago... a complete F1 driver (like M.Schumacher) would not have lost to Rosberg that year, period. He was rattled and made a few mistakes that year
He's got very few weaknesses, but he's not the complete F1 driver like we've seen in the past. He has been rattled when up against other supreme F1 drivers
I think he has significantly improved since 2016. Plus, he still would have won the title that year save for an engine failure.He's got very few weaknesses, but he's not the complete F1 driver like we've seen in the past. He has been rattled when up against other supreme F1 drivers
In my view, he has already far surpassed the achievements of M Schumacher, on the grounds of never having had or asked for number one status at any time, and more importantly, not regularly having a total character failure on track.
It's impossible to tell if he has improved over 2016, because he hasn't been pushed like that since - that's when we see the weaknesses and demons come out.
These quotes from Jenson Button sum it up for me: "Michael was and still is the blueprint for the complete F1 driver." and
"There are days when Lewis would just do something amazing, but there were other days when you got everything right and you'd wonder where he'd gone..." and we still see that with Hamilton this year. The odd weekend he goes walk-about, but he can currently get away with it because of the car.
Statistically, this year's Mercedes is more dominant than Ferrari's F2004, and the Ferrari had more competition that year. And yet M.Schumacher still won the first 5 races in a row, one retirement, then won the next 7 races in a row, followed by two 2nd places. = WDC sewn up. - like him or not as a person, that is what makes a complete F1 driver.
Hakinen also summed it up well, "I think my 100% was a tiny bit quicker than Michael's, but he was at least 98% at every single race, year after year."
Edited by TobyTR on Monday 22 July 00:53
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