Lewis Hamilton
Discussion
isaldiri said:
paulguitar said:
isaldiri said:
paulguitar said:
Absolute nonsense. It's only because Hamilton is one of the drivers that it has any chance at all.
Why is bottas 2nd in the WDC then........? Have you not been watching the whole season?
Look at the way he harassed CLC at Monza causing mistakes that at any other race would have given him the lead, he is the class of the field no doubt.
Wills2 said:
isaldiri said:
paulguitar said:
isaldiri said:
paulguitar said:
Absolute nonsense. It's only because Hamilton is one of the drivers that it has any chance at all.
Why is bottas 2nd in the WDC then........? Have you not been watching the whole season?
Look at the way he harassed CLC at Monza causing mistakes that at any other race would have given him the lead, he is the class of the field no doubt.
There’s little doubt that the Mercedes would have been the Championship winning car since 2014 with any of the top 5 or 6 drivers, all other things being the same.
We’ve seen recently that even Hamilton, and I happily accept that there’s no one better overall than him on the grid, can’t win if there’s a faster car out there with one of the other top drivers.
isaldiri said:
paulguitar said:
isaldiri said:
paulguitar said:
Absolute nonsense. It's only because Hamilton is one of the drivers that it has any chance at all.
Why is bottas 2nd in the WDC then........? Have you not been watching the whole season?
Since then, Hamilton has been driving out of his skin and putting it where it really shouldn’t be.
Wills2 said:
, manages to split the Ferrari's and cause a strategic over think and then a melt down....walks away with the win.
Exactly, that run caused a huge amount of discussion, planning etc at Ferrari and then screwed them up with strategy as Ferrari tried to undo Vettel. Where was bottas 2.0? Nowhere as usual,and I’m sure he’s a brilliant driver. But Hamilton did what he did, then as usual made no mistakes, and took the win. He knows how to piece everything together, when to go fast to apply pressure, etc.REALIST123 said:
You’re attributing Vettel’s technical failure to Hamilton? I’ve heard it all now.
You know perfectly well that is not what's being said.Hamilton pulled out a win when it should not have happened by applying pressure and having pace on a different level to the other driver of the same car.
What's more, the Mercedes has not been the best car all the time since 2014, and even during the times when it hasn't, much of 2017, for example, Hamilton has still got the results.
paulguitar said:
What's more, the Mercedes has not been the best car all the time since 2014, and even during the times when it hasn't, much of 2017, for example, Hamilton has still got the results.
Rosberg and Hamilton shared an equal 59 front row starts each.Mercedes was in a separate class.
Wills2 said:
isaldiri said:
paulguitar said:
isaldiri said:
paulguitar said:
Absolute nonsense. It's only because Hamilton is one of the drivers that it has any chance at all.
Why is bottas 2nd in the WDC then........? Have you not been watching the whole season?
Look at the way he harassed CLC at Monza causing mistakes that at any other race would have given him the lead, he is the class of the field no doubt.
BUT he was in no mans land when he was in the McLaren during the RBR era. People need to get some perspective really. He's arguably the best driver in easily the best all round car.
People suggesting that the Merc isn't the best car and that somehow Ferrari have always had the advantage are trying to concoct some kind of fantasy where Hamilton is wringing the life out of the car against all odds, because him just winning isn't enough, or they don't want to deal with the reality that maybe his car is a big part of it. Again, at McLaren he was essentially Daniel Ricciardo in terms of track position.
37chevy said:
Ahhh so that’s why Bottas is at the front, beating the ferraris race after race....oh, wait...
That Bottas is up at the front at all speaks to the power of the Mercedes, and makes the opposite point to the one you're trying to make. Look at his performance record since joining Mercedes, he got 3rd once in 2016 - his highest place, then the following year, at Mercedes, he gets 3rd 4 times, 2nd 6 times and won 3 times... I guess he just became a mega driver over Christmas 2016 or something....Sadly we will never know what would be if Hamilton had been in the Ferrari at the start of the season, when they weren't remotely competitive, and Vettel in the Merc. I can quite believe that people would claim that he would somehow have defied the odds, the aerodynamics, reliability and engine performance to win GP after GP, like he has in the Merc. I prefer to be a realist about it though.
Edited by Durzel on Wednesday 2nd October 11:32
Durzel said:
Hamilton has always been the difference maker, he's a great driver and very consistent.
BUT he was in no mans land when he was in the McLaren during the RBR era. People need to get some perspective really. He's arguably the best driver in easily the best all round car.
People suggesting that the Merc isn't the best car and that somehow Ferrari have always had the advantage are trying to concoct some kind of fantasy where Hamilton is wringing the life out of the car against all odds, because him just winning isn't enough, or they don't want to deal with the reality that maybe his car is a big part of it. Again, at McLaren he was essentially Daniel Ricciardo in terms of track position.
Nobody, as far as I can see, is suggesting that Ferrari has ‘always had the advantage’. BUT he was in no mans land when he was in the McLaren during the RBR era. People need to get some perspective really. He's arguably the best driver in easily the best all round car.
People suggesting that the Merc isn't the best car and that somehow Ferrari have always had the advantage are trying to concoct some kind of fantasy where Hamilton is wringing the life out of the car against all odds, because him just winning isn't enough, or they don't want to deal with the reality that maybe his car is a big part of it. Again, at McLaren he was essentially Daniel Ricciardo in terms of track position.
Edited by Durzel on Wednesday 2nd October 11:24
The Merc has clearly been the car to have in the hybrid era, overall. However, to say it has always had the advantage is simply incorrect. For a lot of 2017 the Ferrari was the better car as it currently is, since the summer break. I’d expect the Merc to possibly have an advantage in japan but the be crap in Mexico as per usual.
I think one of Hamilton’s greatest strengths is the ability to learn and accept he can always be better. He’s always had an extraordinary natural talent, obvious to any reasonably clued up observer since the days of cadet karts.
He certainly made more mistakes in 2011/2012 than now, whilst at the same time still having a lot of success. What’s notable is that he has almost entirely eradicated those mistakes whilst retaining the other-worldly talent.
paulguitar said:
Durzel said:
Hamilton has always been the difference maker, he's a great driver and very consistent.
BUT he was in no mans land when he was in the McLaren during the RBR era. People need to get some perspective really. He's arguably the best driver in easily the best all round car.
People suggesting that the Merc isn't the best car and that somehow Ferrari have always had the advantage are trying to concoct some kind of fantasy where Hamilton is wringing the life out of the car against all odds, because him just winning isn't enough, or they don't want to deal with the reality that maybe his car is a big part of it. Again, at McLaren he was essentially Daniel Ricciardo in terms of track position.
Nobody, as far as I can see, is suggesting that Ferrari has ‘always had the advantage’. BUT he was in no mans land when he was in the McLaren during the RBR era. People need to get some perspective really. He's arguably the best driver in easily the best all round car.
People suggesting that the Merc isn't the best car and that somehow Ferrari have always had the advantage are trying to concoct some kind of fantasy where Hamilton is wringing the life out of the car against all odds, because him just winning isn't enough, or they don't want to deal with the reality that maybe his car is a big part of it. Again, at McLaren he was essentially Daniel Ricciardo in terms of track position.
Edited by Durzel on Wednesday 2nd October 11:24
The Merc has clearly been the car to have in the hybrid era, overall. However, to say it has always had the advantage is simply incorrect. For a lot of 2017 the Ferrari was the better car as it currently is, since the summer break. I’d expect the Merc to possibly have an advantage in japan but the be crap in Mexico as per usual.
I think one of Hamilton’s greatest strengths is the ability to learn and accept he can always be better. He’s always had an extraordinary natural talent, obvious to any reasonably clued up observer since the days of cadet karts.
He certainly made more mistakes in 2011/2012 than now, whilst at the same time still having a lot of success. What’s notable is that he has almost entirely eradicated those mistakes whilst retaining the other-worldly talent.
My attitude really is that Hamilton has always been one of the best drivers, and was hamstrung by the inadequacies of the McLaren relative to the RBR (as was everyone else) during that era, but has now found himself in the best all round car. Ferrari are competitive now for sure, but they haven't been consistently competitive for a long period before then. Some of that can be put down to their hopeless mistakes, but on that front to be fair to them when you're on the back foot having to throw the kitchen sink at the race to try and get in the mix mistakes happen. Mercedes have had the luxury of being able to evolve an already dominant car, everyone else has to try revolutionising theirs.
This has all been compounded by the fact that Vettel seems to be more susceptible to pressure than Hamilton and others, so has made winnable situations unwinnable.
But, ultimately, when Vettel was in the best car, out front, he was flawless. I agree with your point in the other thread about the fact you don't just luck into 4 WDCs, but by the same token I'm not prepared to accept that Hamilton has somehow transcended the pure, objective, mechanical inadequacies of his Mercedes and has defied these characteristics to win. He is, as I said, arguably the best driver in easily the best all-round car for some time now.
We’re in agreement pretty much all around, when I said Hamilton is driving ‘out of his skin’ I am referring to what he is doing at the moment, with the car advantage clearly not there.
I believe it’s Hamilton that makes the difference which is why he was able to win last weekend. Sure, Ferrari had to mess up, but Hamilton was right there, applying pressure and in a position to take advantage.
I believe it’s Hamilton that makes the difference which is why he was able to win last weekend. Sure, Ferrari had to mess up, but Hamilton was right there, applying pressure and in a position to take advantage.
paulguitar said:
We’re in agreement pretty much all around, when I said Hamilton is driving ‘out of his skin’ I am referring to what he is doing at the moment, with the car advantage clearly not there.
I believe it’s Hamilton that makes the difference which is why he was able to win last weekend. Sure, Ferrari had to mess up, but Hamilton was right there, applying pressure and in a position to take advantage.
But if Hamilton wasn’t there Bottas would have won the race and there was nothing about his race that would make anyone think that he was driving out of his skin. Don’t get me wrong, Hamilton is doing a stellar job this year but the Russian Grand Prix wasn’t one of his best (despite winning). I believe it’s Hamilton that makes the difference which is why he was able to win last weekend. Sure, Ferrari had to mess up, but Hamilton was right there, applying pressure and in a position to take advantage.
HustleRussell said:
Durzel said:
People suggesting that the Merc isn't the best car and that somehow Ferrari have always had the advantage are trying to concoct some kind of fantasy
Nobody has said that.Durzel said:
HustleRussell said:
Durzel said:
People suggesting that the Merc isn't the best car and that somehow Ferrari have always had the advantage are trying to concoct some kind of fantasy
Nobody has said that.I haven't seen anyone on here suggest that any car on the grid was as good as, never mind better than, the Merc, at any point 2014 to 2016
Also, these arguments always seem to polarise themselves into the black and white options that it's either all the car, or it's all the driver. It's really obvious that neither of those two extremes are true, nor have they ever been. If someone seems to be suggesting that Hamilton would be winning championships in any old car, I think it's safe to assume that I've misunderstood their point. When they seem to say it's all the car and any driver could win in it, then the assumption is less safe but the situation also unlikely.
Sure, a reliable car with a performance advantage makes the driver's job easier, but he still needs to beat his team mate, and, esp. after year one, he has to keep his claim to what would be the most sought after seat on the grid. If you own the best car you don't then habitually risk its potential success on any old driver.
It's a team sport. The car is part of the puzzle, and so is the driver, the pit crew, the designers, the strategy planners.... and yet these unanswerable arguments perpetually go around and around about how much of that equation was owed to the driver, or the car, and how much a different driver may have changed the result. I'm guilty of that myself. I truly believe Prost would still have won the 1986 championship had he been in one of the Williams and the driver he replaced - doesn't matter if it was Mansell or Piquet - took his McLaren seat. But I'll never know for sure, and neither will someone who disagrees with me. So why would the argument persist?
Edited by kiseca on Wednesday 2nd October 17:43
Edited by kiseca on Wednesday 2nd October 17:44
Bo_apex said:
Correct.
And Mercedes today remains the best package over race distance.
I don’t believe that has been the case since the summer break.And Mercedes today remains the best package over race distance.
When times are difficult, Lewis is one of very few drivers who can extract close to 100% of the car’s potential lap after lap. I think that is what destroys Valteri’s confidence as the season progresses.
Bo_apex said:
And Mercedes today remains the best package over race distance.
Even if that were true, it is moot when the Ferrari currently has a significant qualifying advantage and is quantifiably faster on the straights. I suspect if Hamilton were given a choice of car at the moment he would pick a red one.Also if Hamilton were a Ferrari driver, you’d be claiming that the Ferrari is the car which is the ‘better package over a race distance’. It’s clear you have a particular drum you always beat.
Edited by paulguitar on Thursday 3rd October 09:40
kiseca said:
Durzel said:
HustleRussell said:
Durzel said:
People suggesting that the Merc isn't the best car and that somehow Ferrari have always had the advantage are trying to concoct some kind of fantasy
Nobody has said that.I haven't seen anyone on here suggest that any car on the grid was as good as, never mind better than, the Merc, at any point 2014 to 2016
Also, these arguments always seem to polarise themselves into the black and white options that it's either all the car, or it's all the driver. It's really obvious that neither of those two extremes are true, nor have they ever been. If someone seems to be suggesting that Hamilton would be winning championships in any old car, I think it's safe to assume that I've misunderstood their point. When they seem to say it's all the car and any driver could win in it, then the assumption is less safe but the situation also unlikely.
Sure, a reliable car with a performance advantage makes the driver's job easier, but he still needs to beat his team mate, and, esp. after year one, he has to keep his claim to what would be the most sought after seat on the grid. If you own the best car you don't then habitually risk its potential success on any old driver.
It's a team sport. The car is part of the puzzle, and so is the driver, the pit crew, the designers, the strategy planners.... and yet these unanswerable arguments perpetually go around and around about how much of that equation was owed to the driver, or the car, and how much a different driver may have changed the result. I'm guilty of that myself. I truly believe Prost would still have won the 1986 championship had he been in one of the Williams and the driver he replaced - doesn't matter if it was Mansell or Piquet - took his McLaren seat. But I'll never know for sure, and neither will someone who disagrees with me. So why would the argument persist?
Edited by kiseca on Wednesday 2nd October 17:43
Edited by kiseca on Wednesday 2nd October 17:44
I guess there is an element of frustration, from my perspective at least, that the cars are a factor simply because it dilutes the objective analysis of drivers. We'll never really know what the likes of Vettel or Ricciardo, or even LeClerc would do in the Mercedes. Based on recent form LeClerc would've been in with a good shout of bossing Hamilton around if they were in the same car. It seems Vettel wouldn't have coped with the pressure. Likewise Ricciardo - would he be on the podium as often as Bottas? etc etc.
Because the cars are different people like myself end up looking to compare drivers based on hypotheticals, which is never really satisfying and as forums like this prove ends up being quite antagonistic, with people arguing with eachother based on unproveable opinions.
I would very much like F1 to be all about the drivers and the teams, the strategy, etc. I suppose at least with football, for example, the differences between the teams are in player skill and manager tactics. Southampton could beat Man City, whereas Haas have zero chance of beating Mercedes short of a freak event like mechanical failure. The Haas drivers line up every race weekend knowing that they have no hope of winning.
¯\_( -_-)_/¯
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