Lewis Hamilton
Discussion
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
Exige77 said:
I know Italy, Italian companies and Italian people very well.
JSF makes a very valid point.
Same reasons that Toyota failed. As great as they are at making road cars, they have completely the wrong culture to succeed in F1.
Totally agree that Ferrari has a culture that makes it difficult to succeed (the original point, I believe). Totally disagree that 'being italian' makes that kind of success impossible, any more than it would be because they're Muslim or black or any other arbitrary, broad brush nonsense. JSF makes a very valid point.
Same reasons that Toyota failed. As great as they are at making road cars, they have completely the wrong culture to succeed in F1.
It's just lazy stereotyping.
Spend some time working in Italy in industry. You’ll then see why the quick and clear decision making and delegation that’s needed in modern era F1 doesn’t happen.
Gone are the days when a nice Enzo era engine was enough to win. It’s a team game now.
Exige77 said:
Not at all.
Spend some time working in Italy in industry. You’ll then see why the quick and clear decision making and delegation that’s needed in modern era F1 doesn’t happen.
Gone are the days when a nice Enzo era engine was enough to win. It’s a team game now.
Well... We shouldn't generalise I suppose... But I too have worked with teams of Italian engineers... Spend some time working in Italy in industry. You’ll then see why the quick and clear decision making and delegation that’s needed in modern era F1 doesn’t happen.
Gone are the days when a nice Enzo era engine was enough to win. It’s a team game now.
HighwayStar said:
I’ll entertain you on this.... Ferrari’s dominance was very specific-Tyres. RedBull’s was the double diffuser.
It’s widely believed last year’s Ferrari PU bested Mercs or was at least on par. Honda more or less their.
There were some changes to the rules last season and other teams still didn’t halt Mercedes.
So Sparta. What clear advantage does Mercedes now have that the other teams don’t have that you would take from Mercedes that would level the field? Remember new rules also apply to all teams so they still have to turn up and beat Merc, there’s no guarantees.
We'll find out as the season unfolds.It’s widely believed last year’s Ferrari PU bested Mercs or was at least on par. Honda more or less their.
There were some changes to the rules last season and other teams still didn’t halt Mercedes.
So Sparta. What clear advantage does Mercedes now have that the other teams don’t have that you would take from Mercedes that would level the field? Remember new rules also apply to all teams so they still have to turn up and beat Merc, there’s no guarantees.
But if journeyman Bottas once again gets P2 or above in the WDC it will be fair to consider that Mercedes remains the seat to have.
sparta6 said:
HighwayStar said:
I’ll entertain you on this.... Ferrari’s dominance was very specific-Tyres. RedBull’s was the double diffuser.
It’s widely believed last year’s Ferrari PU bested Mercs or was at least on par. Honda more or less their.
There were some changes to the rules last season and other teams still didn’t halt Mercedes.
So Sparta. What clear advantage does Mercedes now have that the other teams don’t have that you would take from Mercedes that would level the field? Remember new rules also apply to all teams so they still have to turn up and beat Merc, there’s no guarantees.
We'll find out as the season unfolds.It’s widely believed last year’s Ferrari PU bested Mercs or was at least on par. Honda more or less their.
There were some changes to the rules last season and other teams still didn’t halt Mercedes.
So Sparta. What clear advantage does Mercedes now have that the other teams don’t have that you would take from Mercedes that would level the field? Remember new rules also apply to all teams so they still have to turn up and beat Merc, there’s no guarantees.
But if journeyman Bottas once again gets P2 or above in the WDC it will be fair to consider that Mercedes remains the seat to have.
So, again... how should the rules be changed to stop Mercedes?
HighwayStar said:
Bottas is a decent driver, just not shown the capability to go the distance, put it together over a whole season.
So, again... how should the rules be changed to stop Mercedes?
You will probably get an answer to that question.. it just won't be a logical one So, again... how should the rules be changed to stop Mercedes?
Back in the land of the sane... F1 is a competition designed to work out which team is best. The current answer is Mercedes, and they should hold that position until another team does better. There's nothing to take away from them, they've done it on merit even allowing for of an early PU advantage. And really, even that advantage was on merit too - others could have done the same, Ferrari could have done.
F1 asks the question, Mercedes is the answer. Fair and square.
TheDeuce said:
HighwayStar said:
Bottas is a decent driver, just not shown the capability to go the distance, put it together over a whole season.
So, again... how should the rules be changed to stop Mercedes?
You will probably get an answer to that question.. it just won't be a logical one So, again... how should the rules be changed to stop Mercedes?
Back in the land of the sane... F1 is a competition designed to work out which team is best. The current answer is Mercedes, and they should hold that position until another team does better. There's nothing to take away from them, they've done it on merit even allowing for of an early PU advantage. And really, even that advantage was on merit too - others could have done the same, Ferrari could have done.
F1 asks the question, Mercedes is the answer. Fair and square.
HighwayStar said:
sparta6 said:
HighwayStar said:
I’ll entertain you on this.... Ferrari’s dominance was very specific-Tyres. RedBull’s was the double diffuser.
It’s widely believed last year’s Ferrari PU bested Mercs or was at least on par. Honda more or less their.
There were some changes to the rules last season and other teams still didn’t halt Mercedes.
So Sparta. What clear advantage does Mercedes now have that the other teams don’t have that you would take from Mercedes that would level the field? Remember new rules also apply to all teams so they still have to turn up and beat Merc, there’s no guarantees.
We'll find out as the season unfolds.It’s widely believed last year’s Ferrari PU bested Mercs or was at least on par. Honda more or less their.
There were some changes to the rules last season and other teams still didn’t halt Mercedes.
So Sparta. What clear advantage does Mercedes now have that the other teams don’t have that you would take from Mercedes that would level the field? Remember new rules also apply to all teams so they still have to turn up and beat Merc, there’s no guarantees.
But if journeyman Bottas once again gets P2 or above in the WDC it will be fair to consider that Mercedes remains the seat to have.
So, again... how should the rules be changed to stop Mercedes?
In his first 10 minutes Albon has already displayed better racecraft than Bottas.
FIA has zero interest in changing rules to to halt Mercedes dominance, unlike their canny intervention with Ferrari's.
At least this way it keeps things interesting from a LeClerc and Max perspective, trying to catch up to Merc with just two cartridges in their clip
sparta6 said:
FIA has zero interest in changing rules to to halt Mercedes dominance, unlike their canny intervention with Ferrari's.
Theres been a number of rule changes in the hybrid era, ostensibly in order to shake the field up/make for closer racing, whichever way you want to define that "halting mercedes dominance" was anticipated at least a couple of times. The simple fact is mercedes+lewis have managed to meet every challenge and keep coming out on top, so they (the rule changes) aren't held to be as important as the end of ferrari dominance and tyres are, even though some aspects (such as increasing the tyre width) were quite considerable.Teddy Lop said:
sparta6 said:
FIA has zero interest in changing rules to to halt Mercedes dominance, unlike their canny intervention with Ferrari's.
Theres been a number of rule changes in the hybrid era, ostensibly in order to shake the field up/make for closer racing, whichever way you want to define that "halting mercedes dominance" was anticipated at least a couple of times. The simple fact is mercedes+lewis have managed to meet every challenge and keep coming out on top, so they (the rule changes) aren't held to be as important as the end of ferrari dominance and tyres are, even though some aspects (such as increasing the tyre width) were quite considerable.
k me, re Bottas... did I say he’s equal to Hamilton, Max or The Monegasque...? You’re literally agreeing with me. He did ok at Williams before their slide.. manage to get on the podium. Re stopping Mercedes... you now see what you are crying out isn’t that simple. Mercedes excel, as already highlighted by TheDeuce, as a team and in many areas to produce their car. Ferrari lost their bespoke tyres, RedBull lost their blown diffuser. There is no one thing that’s going to hobble Mercedes... can you see that? That’s why I asked you what you would do and you have no answer.
Edited by HighwayStar on Sunday 14th June 15:21
HighwayStar said:
Teddy Lop said:
sparta6 said:
FIA has zero interest in changing rules to to halt Mercedes dominance, unlike their canny intervention with Ferrari's.
Theres been a number of rule changes in the hybrid era, ostensibly in order to shake the field up/make for closer racing, whichever way you want to define that "halting mercedes dominance" was anticipated at least a couple of times. The simple fact is mercedes+lewis have managed to meet every challenge and keep coming out on top, so they (the rule changes) aren't held to be as important as the end of ferrari dominance and tyres are, even though some aspects (such as increasing the tyre width) were quite considerable.k me, re Bottas... did I say he’s equal to Hamilton, Max or The Monegasque...? You’re literally agreeing with me. He did ok at Williams before their slide.. manage to get on the podium. Re stopping Mercedes... you now see what you are crying out isn’t that simple. Mercedes excel, as already highlighted by TheDeuce, as a team and in many areas to produce their car. Ferrari lost their bespoke tyres, RedBull lost their blown diffuser. There is no one thing that’s going to hobble Mercedes... can you see that? That’s why I asked you what you would do and you have no answer.
Edited by HighwayStar on Sunday 14th June 15:21
Quite. Only Mercedes know what advantages it has tucked up it's sleeve for this season, DAS aside
sparta6 said:
If the FIA are reading this thread, I recommend TheDeuce to join their advisory panel
Quite. Only Mercedes know what advantages it has tucked up it's sleeve for this season, DAS aside
What are you on about now!? Quite. Only Mercedes know what advantages it has tucked up it's sleeve for this season, DAS aside
I'm sure Mercedes have many things up their sleeve at any one time, it's called innovation. They don't enjoy any unfair advantage that you can take away though.
Unlike Ferrari who do still have their 'special' advantages, and who do cheat, and still can't win.
I don't know why it bothers you so much? The best team are supposed to win... They do. There is nothing to fix. You're just bored of it
sparta6 said:
HighwayStar said:
Teddy Lop said:
sparta6 said:
FIA has zero interest in changing rules to to halt Mercedes dominance, unlike their canny intervention with Ferrari's.
Theres been a number of rule changes in the hybrid era, ostensibly in order to shake the field up/make for closer racing, whichever way you want to define that "halting mercedes dominance" was anticipated at least a couple of times. The simple fact is mercedes+lewis have managed to meet every challenge and keep coming out on top, so they (the rule changes) aren't held to be as important as the end of ferrari dominance and tyres are, even though some aspects (such as increasing the tyre width) were quite considerable.k me, re Bottas... did I say he’s equal to Hamilton, Max or The Monegasque...? You’re literally agreeing with me. He did ok at Williams before their slide.. manage to get on the podium. Re stopping Mercedes... you now see what you are crying out isn’t that simple. Mercedes excel, as already highlighted by TheDeuce, as a team and in many areas to produce their car. Ferrari lost their bespoke tyres, RedBull lost their blown diffuser. There is no one thing that’s going to hobble Mercedes... can you see that? That’s why I asked you what you would do and you have no answer.
Edited by HighwayStar on Sunday 14th June 15:21
Quite. Only Mercedes know what advantages it has tucked up it's sleeve for this season, DAS aside
.Who among us will raise their hand for Sparta?
Can you tell I’m bored
The season can’t start soon enough.
TheDeuce said:
sparta6 said:
If the FIA are reading this thread, I recommend TheDeuce to join their advisory panel
Quite. Only Mercedes know what advantages it has tucked up it's sleeve for this season, DAS aside
What are you on about now!? Quite. Only Mercedes know what advantages it has tucked up it's sleeve for this season, DAS aside
I'm sure Mercedes have many things up their sleeve at any one time, it's called innovation. They don't enjoy any unfair advantage that you can take away though.
Unlike Ferrari who do still have their 'special' advantages, and who do cheat, and still can't win.
I don't know why it bothers you so much? The best team are supposed to win... They do. There is nothing to fix. You're just bored of it
At times Ferrari and Redbull have had a faster car. But they simply cannot match Mercedes as a team. And of course they have the best driver of his generation, and arguably of all time. Which helps.
When living and working in Italy I used to say about the place that it all just about manages to work despite itself. Loved my time there 😀
As to Mercedes...well...it’s not like they have form entering top level motor racing and dominating.
Ferrari dominate in patches, usually when they are able to coalesce around a dominant force. Even then they have frequently found ways to bugger it up. Enzo was fully guilty of that long before Ferrari became corporate.
As to Mercedes...well...it’s not like they have form entering top level motor racing and dominating.
Ferrari dominate in patches, usually when they are able to coalesce around a dominant force. Even then they have frequently found ways to bugger it up. Enzo was fully guilty of that long before Ferrari became corporate.
DeejRC said:
Ferrari dominate in patches, usually when they are able to coalesce around a dominant force. Even then they have frequently found ways to bugger it up. Enzo was fully guilty of that long before Ferrari became corporate.
Translate: they only win when they can't lose.. but sometimes they find a way to lose anyway 
I love the Ferrari passion and the Italian (general Mediterranean) way of life, business etc... But in the end each time Ferrari have battled a major corporate on the racetrack they have ultimately been beaten.
None of it matters in the end. Ferrari have been losing at racing since forever and their car sales remain healthy - they are successful by being Ferrari and being present. In the end I suspect they'd sell less cars if they did take a more modern approach to F1 for the sake of winning. Being the passionate and dastardly underdogs of F1 has hardly harmed them..
TheDeuce said:
Translate: they only win when they can't lose.. but sometimes they find a way to lose anyway
I love the Ferrari passion and the Italian (general Mediterranean) way of life, business etc... But in the end each time Ferrari have battled a major corporate on the racetrack they have ultimately been beaten.
None of it matters in the end. Ferrari have been losing at racing since forever and their car sales remain healthy - they are successful by being Ferrari and being present. In the end I suspect they'd sell less cars if they did take a more modern approach to F1 for the sake of winning. Being the passionate and dastardly underdogs of F1 has hardly harmed them..
Indeed.I love the Ferrari passion and the Italian (general Mediterranean) way of life, business etc... But in the end each time Ferrari have battled a major corporate on the racetrack they have ultimately been beaten.
None of it matters in the end. Ferrari have been losing at racing since forever and their car sales remain healthy - they are successful by being Ferrari and being present. In the end I suspect they'd sell less cars if they did take a more modern approach to F1 for the sake of winning. Being the passionate and dastardly underdogs of F1 has hardly harmed them..
Ferrari street cars remain the most coveted.
What does that tell us about the marketing ROI of F1 success ?
sparta6 said:
Indeed.
Ferrari street cars remain the most coveted.
What does that tell us about the marketing ROI of F1 success ?
It tells us that Ferrari win in marketing terms by remaining newsworthy in the sport.Ferrari street cars remain the most coveted.
What does that tell us about the marketing ROI of F1 success ?
Also that Mercedes win by making themselves newsworthy by winning and beating Ferrari.
F1 is a drama as well as a sport. Ferrari are dramatic, Mercedes win. Both win imo. Red bull also dramatic and exciting because they threaten Ferrari... If you want to make a marketing ROI in F1 then winning is great, but just being interesting is good enough.
This is why it never really works out for Renault
TheDeuce said:
sparta6 said:
Indeed.
Ferrari street cars remain the most coveted.
What does that tell us about the marketing ROI of F1 success ?
It tells us that Ferrari win in marketing terms by remaining newsworthy in the sport.Ferrari street cars remain the most coveted.
What does that tell us about the marketing ROI of F1 success ?
Also that Mercedes win by making themselves newsworthy by winning and beating Ferrari.
F1 is a drama as well as a sport. Ferrari are dramatic, Mercedes win. Both win imo. Red bull also dramatic and exciting because they threaten Ferrari... If you want to make a marketing ROI in F1 then winning is great, but just being interesting is good enough.
This is why it never really works out for Renault
BUT - they are France. FIA are France. Ego and reputation are at stake.
HighwayStar said:
fk me, re Bottas... did I say he’s equal to Hamilton, Max or The Monegasque...? You’re literally agreeing with me. He did ok at Williams before their slide.. manage to get on the podium.
I compared Albon to Bottas.k me, re Bottas... did I say he’s equal to Hamilton, Max or The Monegasque...? You’re literally agreeing with me. He did ok at Williams before their slide.. manage to get on the podium. Edited by HighwayStar on Sunday 14th June 15:21
Albon has far more racecraft.
Bottas only got the Merc seat as he was managed by Toto at the time (££), and no threat to Lewis.
Bottas doesn't deserve a Merc seat, but Ricciardo does.
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