Lewis Hamilton
Discussion
MarkwG said:
TheDeuce said:
Mercedes acknowledge their past on their website... And the statues acknowledge those persons history. What's the difference?
The difference is, one acknowledges & apologises, the other commemorates & celebrates.No racer ever went faster by looking in their rear view mirror. By the same token we should learn from our past but not seek to erase it or obsess over it right now - the most efficient route to change is to look forward no?
TheDeuce said:
MarkwG said:
TheDeuce said:
Mercedes acknowledge their past on their website... And the statues acknowledge those persons history. What's the difference?
The difference is, one acknowledges & apologises, the other commemorates & celebrates.No racer ever went faster by looking in their rear view mirror. By the same token we should learn from our past but not seek to erase it or obsess over it right now - the most efficient route to change is to look forward no?
MarkwG said:
The record is kept in museums & libraries, not town squares & churches, nothing is being erased. I'd find it strange if anyone felt pride in the actions of slave traders, particularity those who weren't revered at the time, either. Times are indeed changing, hence why the statues are coming down.
Difference of views - all views are welcome in my book.My view is that we as a people were once moved, or forced... To celebrate certain people and actions. Rightly or wrongly, via statues etc.
The reminders of such poignant moments should remain, even if the sentiment of such events has changed. We can change anything we want looking forwards - but we can never improve upon or alter the past. We can learn from it though - or we can fruitlessly try and remove it via deleting symbolism.
Either way the sodding statues exist and are paid for. They could stand as a lesson in what is wrong and they'd still be more useful than scrapped.
MarkwG said:
TheDeuce said:
MarkwG said:
TheDeuce said:
Mercedes acknowledge their past on their website... And the statues acknowledge those persons history. What's the difference?
The difference is, one acknowledges & apologises, the other commemorates & celebrates.No racer ever went faster by looking in their rear view mirror. By the same token we should learn from our past but not seek to erase it or obsess over it right now - the most efficient route to change is to look forward no?
Trying to erase history, particularly negative events, is never a very good idea.
Historical monuments relating to the slave trade should now be celebrated because they remind us of the things we shouldn't do.
Also, maybe thought of as being controversial for a second, some of the people involved in the slave trade were, ironically, philanthropists who also did a lot of good. Some of those people are commemorated with statues and paintings. They were involved in a trade that our societies accepted, at that time, however wrong we now know it was. We don't have to accept slavery to agree some of these people did good things for society as well as what we now accept as bad.
Lewis Hamilton wears his heart on his sleeve, but he also sometimes has a naive belief that his causes should be everybody's and that he must assume a leadership role. People can denounce racism and slavery in their own way without having to conform to the 'Hamilton standard' and I hope he'll accept that.
Motorsport is terribly misrepresentative of society, though I imagine much of that is financially and socially driven and that comes from outside the sport. Being black didn't stop McLaren from spottong and supporting Hamilton from an early age, for example.
Historical monuments relating to the slave trade should now be celebrated because they remind us of the things we shouldn't do.
Also, maybe thought of as being controversial for a second, some of the people involved in the slave trade were, ironically, philanthropists who also did a lot of good. Some of those people are commemorated with statues and paintings. They were involved in a trade that our societies accepted, at that time, however wrong we now know it was. We don't have to accept slavery to agree some of these people did good things for society as well as what we now accept as bad.
Lewis Hamilton wears his heart on his sleeve, but he also sometimes has a naive belief that his causes should be everybody's and that he must assume a leadership role. People can denounce racism and slavery in their own way without having to conform to the 'Hamilton standard' and I hope he'll accept that.
Motorsport is terribly misrepresentative of society, though I imagine much of that is financially and socially driven and that comes from outside the sport. Being black didn't stop McLaren from spottong and supporting Hamilton from an early age, for example.
angrymoby said:
i mean all those German Jews moaning about Hitler statues back in the day ...pffft, i mean he did build motorways & did remind Germans of their terrible history
...oh hang on
The Germans didn't get the option as they lost the war and saw their country and its infrastructure destroyed, those who survived didn't want his or the Nazi images on public display either, be they Jewish or any other group living there....oh hang on
You have to be a bit dense to use your comment in reference to the statues we are discussing., which were usually erected after a long period post death, often related to public works funding legacies.
angrymoby said:
i mean all those German Jews moaning about Hitler statues back in the day ...pffft, i mean he did build motorways & did remind Germans of their terrible history
...oh hang on
Indeed - I don't recall such hand wringing debates when the statues of Sadam Hussain, Muammar Gaddafi, or Enver Hoxha were pulled down? And yet, they are still remembered. Society rejecting the horrors of the past, & the symbolism of it, is part of history, not erasure of it. Nobody is pulling down statues of Florence Nightingale...& we've erected one to Mary Seacole. Personally, I believe those are the people we should be celebrating....oh hang on
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
They also didn't protest by tearing up the autobahns or demanding VW and Mercedes were closed down.
The British army went into the major industrial companies such as the car industry and ran them to get them back up and running again. It's where a lot of their efficient systems came from.jsf said:
The Germans didn't get the option as they lost the war and saw their country and its infrastructure destroyed, those who survived didn't want his or the Nazi images on public display either, be they Jewish or any other group living there.
You have to be a bit dense to use your comment in reference to the statues we are discussing., which were usually erected after a long period post death, often related to public works funding legacies.
you have to be a bit dense to not realise what those statues are there for ...they're there to be venerated & literally looked up to.You have to be a bit dense to use your comment in reference to the statues we are discussing., which were usually erected after a long period post death, often related to public works funding legacies.
if you want them to be a reminder of our past & legacy, put them in a place that is used as a reminder of past & legacy- i suggest a museum.
if you can't accept that those statues might be offensive to descendants of those who were (& not that many generations ago, either) oppressed, then you're either ignorant, deliberately insensitive, or ...well, we all know what the 'or' is
Edited by angrymoby on Friday 10th July 09:21
MarkwG said:
Indeed - I don't recall such hand wringing debates when the statues of Sadam Hussain, Muammar Gaddafi, or Enver Hoxha were pulled down? And yet, they are still remembered. Society rejecting the horrors of the past, & the symbolism of it, is part of history, not erasure of it. Nobody is pulling down statues of Florence Nightingale...& we've erected one to Mary Seacole. Personally, I believe those are the people we should be celebrating.
The statues being discussed are NOT of modern day tyrants though are they? They're generally of people who set out to achieve good things and used the resources available to them - some of which are considered socially abhorrent today, but back when they were living their life that simply wasn't the case.Every celebrated ancient monument in the world would need to be flattened if we're going to judge those that inspired them by contemporary standards.
angrymoby said:
you have to be a bit dense to not realise what those statues are there for ...they're there to be venerated & literally looked up to.
if you want them to be a reminder of our past & legacy, put them in a place that is used as a reminder of past & legacy- i suggest a museum.
if you can't accept that those statues might be offensive to descendants of those who were oppressed, then you're either ignorant, deliberately insensitive, or ...well, we all know what the 'or' is
Just say it, you'd be wrong about that too.if you want them to be a reminder of our past & legacy, put them in a place that is used as a reminder of past & legacy- i suggest a museum.
if you can't accept that those statues might be offensive to descendants of those who were oppressed, then you're either ignorant, deliberately insensitive, or ...well, we all know what the 'or' is
MarkwG said:
angrymoby said:
i mean all those German Jews moaning about Hitler statues back in the day ...pffft, i mean he did build motorways & did remind Germans of their terrible history
...oh hang on
Indeed - I don't recall such hand wringing debates when the statues of Sadam Hussain, Muammar Gaddafi, or Enver Hoxha were pulled down? And yet, they are still remembered. Society rejecting the horrors of the past, & the symbolism of it, is part of history, not erasure of it. Nobody is pulling down statues of Florence Nightingale...& we've erected one to Mary Seacole. Personally, I believe those are the people we should be celebrating....oh hang on
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff