McLaren - Ron Dennis set to leave McLaren F1
Discussion
Logic tells me that next year McLaren will be 4th, or better in the WCC.
But frankly I would not bet against, Renault, Williams, or even Force India beating them.
A technical director probably gets to hear about 6-10 good ideas every week. I suspect that the Brawns and Neweys of this world, instinctively know which ones to allocate resources to be developed for next week, next month, or next year.
McLaren just seem to have a scatter gun approach. The opposite of Toyota who wanted to understand why something did not work, before they could ditch it and move on.
I believe that they might have too many cooks, but are lacking a Master Chef, probably a bit like Ferrari are likely to be now that Alinson has been elbowed out.
But frankly I would not bet against, Renault, Williams, or even Force India beating them.
A technical director probably gets to hear about 6-10 good ideas every week. I suspect that the Brawns and Neweys of this world, instinctively know which ones to allocate resources to be developed for next week, next month, or next year.
McLaren just seem to have a scatter gun approach. The opposite of Toyota who wanted to understand why something did not work, before they could ditch it and move on.
I believe that they might have too many cooks, but are lacking a Master Chef, probably a bit like Ferrari are likely to be now that Alinson has been elbowed out.
Vaud said:
I think his point was that when Mercedes came in as a manufacturer as well as an engine supplier, there was no way that McLaren could ever become constructors champion. A fully integrated constructor would always have the advantage.
Modern cars are so tightly integrated, I think the logic was that to win (which is all they care about) they needed to do something radical, not be a customer engine. I agree with his logic, though clearly not with their execution.
For me, the reasoning was sound but the timing was questionable. Not only because it gave Honda too little time to design and build the engine but the fact that McLaren had to pay compensation to Mercedes to break the contract (£35m according to McLaren's accounts).Modern cars are so tightly integrated, I think the logic was that to win (which is all they care about) they needed to do something radical, not be a customer engine. I agree with his logic, though clearly not with their execution.
ralphrj said:
Oof!
He probably hasn't managed to spend the £9,750,528 they paid him to NOT run McLaren.
I thought you were joking and then did a quick google...He probably hasn't managed to spend the £9,750,528 they paid him to NOT run McLaren.
"He was not the only departure as McLaren’s team boss Martin Whitmarsh left last year and has since taken over as the chief executive of Britain’s America’s Cup bid, Ben Ainslie Racing. The financial statements for McLaren’s F1 team reveal that the group paid $15.1 million in “compensation for loss of office of a director” and it is understood that this was Mr Whitmarsh’s payoff."
I think that the 2014 accounts for McLaren must make sobering reading for the shareholders.
£35m paid to Mercedes to not have to run the best engine in F1.
£10m compensation to the CEO that (perhaps) they want back.
£??m spent on the MP4-29H/1X1 that only managed 6 untimed laps.
You have to hope that the only way from here is up.
£35m paid to Mercedes to not have to run the best engine in F1.
£10m compensation to the CEO that (perhaps) they want back.
£??m spent on the MP4-29H/1X1 that only managed 6 untimed laps.
You have to hope that the only way from here is up.
This thread sadly underlines the points made on the "why crap" thread elsewhere.
People blindly assume that next year it wil be better. As if somehow, with a reduced budget compared to the big teams. Without headline grabbing drivers. Without star talent at the top.
That they will beat the other teams that a) do have those things and b) wont exactly be sitting on their laurels.
I foresee that unless the Honda is the leading power unit by some margin (unlikely) and McLaren some how fluke a design loophole that no one else has seen (again unlikely) they will be where they are now. 5th or 6th.
People blindly assume that next year it wil be better. As if somehow, with a reduced budget compared to the big teams. Without headline grabbing drivers. Without star talent at the top.
That they will beat the other teams that a) do have those things and b) wont exactly be sitting on their laurels.
I foresee that unless the Honda is the leading power unit by some margin (unlikely) and McLaren some how fluke a design loophole that no one else has seen (again unlikely) they will be where they are now. 5th or 6th.
Rich_W said:
This thread sadly underlines the points made on the "why crap" thread elsewhere.
People blindly assume that next year it wil be better. As if somehow, with a reduced budget compared to the big teams. Without headline grabbing drivers. Without star talent at the top.
That they will beat the other teams that a) do have those things and b) wont exactly be sitting on their laurels.
I foresee that unless the Honda is the leading power unit by some margin (unlikely) and McLaren some how fluke a design loophole that no one else has seen (again unlikely) they will be where they are now. 5th or 6th.
I take your points, but also think that given the changes to the engines tokens rubbish for next year - aside from Mercedes, Honda is truly a leading engineering company to do this stuff. People blindly assume that next year it wil be better. As if somehow, with a reduced budget compared to the big teams. Without headline grabbing drivers. Without star talent at the top.
That they will beat the other teams that a) do have those things and b) wont exactly be sitting on their laurels.
I foresee that unless the Honda is the leading power unit by some margin (unlikely) and McLaren some how fluke a design loophole that no one else has seen (again unlikely) they will be where they are now. 5th or 6th.
I hope that they can do it.
Vaud said:
Rich_W said:
This thread sadly underlines the points made on the "why crap" thread elsewhere.
People blindly assume that next year it wil be better. As if somehow, with a reduced budget compared to the big teams. Without headline grabbing drivers. Without star talent at the top.
That they will beat the other teams that a) do have those things and b) wont exactly be sitting on their laurels.
I foresee that unless the Honda is the leading power unit by some margin (unlikely) and McLaren some how fluke a design loophole that no one else has seen (again unlikely) they will be where they are now. 5th or 6th.
I take your points, but also think that given the changes to the engines tokens rubbish for next year - aside from Mercedes, Honda is truly a leading engineering company to do this stuff. People blindly assume that next year it wil be better. As if somehow, with a reduced budget compared to the big teams. Without headline grabbing drivers. Without star talent at the top.
That they will beat the other teams that a) do have those things and b) wont exactly be sitting on their laurels.
I foresee that unless the Honda is the leading power unit by some margin (unlikely) and McLaren some how fluke a design loophole that no one else has seen (again unlikely) they will be where they are now. 5th or 6th.
I hope that they can do it.
I tend to broadly agree with Rich_W, and whilst Honda certainly are a top notch engineering company, with a substantial budget, they're up against Mercedes, who were recruiting years before the hybrid PU hit the track, with an (in effect) unlimited budget, and a two year head start.
FeelingLucky said:
Doesn't this pre-suppose somewhat, that it is the token system that has been holding them back, I see no evidence of this, remember they're still spectacularly unreliable power units, something that doesn't require tokens to fix.
I tend to broadly agree with Rich_W, and whilst Honda certainly are a top notch engineering company, with a substantial budget, they're up against Mercedes, who were recruiting years before the hybrid PU hit the track, with an (in effect) unlimited budget, and a two year head start.
I agree. I understand that Honda are taking a more fundamental design change next year to more of the Merc approach - will be interesting as I'm guessing they have had a lot of designs on the bench already - and they do have great facilities and budget?I tend to broadly agree with Rich_W, and whilst Honda certainly are a top notch engineering company, with a substantial budget, they're up against Mercedes, who were recruiting years before the hybrid PU hit the track, with an (in effect) unlimited budget, and a two year head start.
Time will tell. I don't really mind either way, I don't support any team these days, other than wanting to see the competition much closer.
FeelingLucky said:
Doesn't this pre-suppose somewhat, that it is the token system that has been holding them back, I see no evidence of this, remember they're still spectacularly unreliable power units, something that doesn't require tokens to fix.
My understanding is that in order to introduce an update on reliability grounds, that is without token spend, a team must submit design details of the affected parts to the other teams so that they can assess it for any potential performance increase. Honda are apparently reluctant to submit their design to this process.thegreenhell said:
My understanding is that in order to introduce an update on reliability grounds, that is without token spend, a team must submit design details of the affected parts to the other teams so that they can assess it for any potential performance increase. Honda are apparently reluctant to submit their design to this process.
Aren't tokens being ditched next year? This story is starting to get quite juicy now. Sky are now reporting that Dennis could be replaced by Brawn, Whitmarsh and Justin King, with Boullier moving to Ferrari as mentioned above. I would love to see Ross Brawn back, but does he really want it? The same applies to Martin Whitmarsh. I think people generally forget how deeply intelligent these people are, but if the planets don't quite align, they can end up looking foolish.
FWIW I like RD, an absolutely fascinating character. There is something about the way he speaks I find incredibly engaging. It just makes me stop and listen. The same applies to Gordon Murray, his Motorsport podcasts are mesmerising. As opposed to for example, Christian Horner, who is a nasally whining
.
FWIW I like RD, an absolutely fascinating character. There is something about the way he speaks I find incredibly engaging. It just makes me stop and listen. The same applies to Gordon Murray, his Motorsport podcasts are mesmerising. As opposed to for example, Christian Horner, who is a nasally whining
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