Honda - another disaster ?
Discussion
NRS said:
Any other team does basically the same - RB did much worse with Renault for example.
They did indeed, and had Redbull somehow ended up with a Mercedes engine and still proven a second a lap slower than the fastest Mercedes powered car, people would be equally scathing about them. I think people are being somewhat shortsighted when drawing conclusions. there are a couple of salient points.......
a) the 2018 chassis isn't the 2017 chassis
b) the team has been on record and said the 2018 installation isn't optimised for the renault engine due to the truncated timescales presented after the timing of the renault deal
It was pretty clear from data and trackside observations last year that the McL was indeed one of the finest chassis, how that has any bearing on this year i dont know, its strage that so called F1 fans seem to be able to conclude that because the 2018 car engine combo isn't at the front of the grid the 2017 chassis wasnt as good as the observers had been saying?
a) the 2018 chassis isn't the 2017 chassis
b) the team has been on record and said the 2018 installation isn't optimised for the renault engine due to the truncated timescales presented after the timing of the renault deal
It was pretty clear from data and trackside observations last year that the McL was indeed one of the finest chassis, how that has any bearing on this year i dont know, its strage that so called F1 fans seem to be able to conclude that because the 2018 car engine combo isn't at the front of the grid the 2017 chassis wasnt as good as the observers had been saying?
Vaud said:
Car-Matt said:
Vaud said:
Car-Matt said:
I don't understand why Mclaren didn't fund Manor as B team to run the Honda for 3 years then take it over when it was developed, all they have done is 3 years of pain and very public development for Red Bull to reap the rewards. It was always going to take till year 5 to see them near the front.
In the case of Manor - after Jules' accident no-one wanted to take over Manor. Not because it was a bad team, they did a lot with few resources - but because of the potential liability of legal action against them. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/maria-villota-m...
and
https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2017/01/28/so-what...
Theoretical anyway.........Sauber would have been just as good or even enter a new team............the principle being that a b team could run round at the back under the radar doing the development......its happened many times in the past
kambites said:
Derek Smith said:
Some people do seem to be enjoying the problems McL are enduring. Why McL?
They spent all of last year claiming their chassis was wonderful and everything was Honda's fault... if they do that and then swap engines and their car is still garbage they deserve to be ridiculed.That they've got as many points as they have is down to a combination of luck (or other team's procedural incompetence) and Alonso's ability to drive the wheels of a dog of a car, IMO. It doesn't reflect the raw pace of the car.
ETA: Personally I don't want to see Mclaren do badly as such, I just want to see them end up behind the Honda engined cars next year.
May 2017 - Spain
Alonso said:
We know how much we are losing from the power unit, so I think from the chassis side, we more or less confirmed what we thought at the beginning of the year - that we are quite competitive. But still not the best, still some work to do, aerodynamically and mechanically, I think we need to keep working, to be at the level of Mercedes and Ferrari that definitely are a little bit of everyone. But we could be right behind them in terms of chassis.
Aug 2017 - BelgiumAlonso said:
In Q2 until the final attempt we were 1.5 seconds off on a track where we know how much we are losing with the engine, so we would easily be in first and second positions.
The battery didn't work and I lost six tenths from Turn 11 to 12. I was two tenths quicker than on the previous lap so I would have improved one or two more in the final sector, so we would have been in Q3 without any problems.
Oct 2017 - MexicoThe battery didn't work and I lost six tenths from Turn 11 to 12. I was two tenths quicker than on the previous lap so I would have improved one or two more in the final sector, so we would have been in Q3 without any problems.
Alonso said:
Being two-tenths off P1 in qualifying, that shows probably for the first time in the last three years we had the best car out there.
Going back a bit further:December 2016 - Winter
Boullier said:
If we had the best engine this year, we would have won races. We know, the GPS traces [of corner speeds] tell us. There is room for improvement everywhere with Honda. It also drives your chassis development. Everything is connected. You can't make a car too draggy if you don't have enough power deployment because you lose time. You have to balance all the time. We work as one team with Honda to achieve what we want.
July 2016 - Hungarian GPBoullier said:
We believe our chassis is in the top three – let's say fighting with Ferrari for the third spot. We can have big gains from this year to next year. If we are at the level of Mercedes[in 2017], it will be in seconds, not tenths – in seconds! So we cannot say anything. If we have the same power as Mercedes next year I know we can fight for the wins, and for podiums, and maybe fight for the championship.
Fighting with Ferrari is hardly a big claim. Ferrari were about the 3rd best car by this time even with their power advantage over RB.I don't think these were fantastic claims given where the respective cars were at that point in time, they were probably quite accurate.
It's just that every year, there is some level of reset in the chassis design. I think McLaren lost out in not being able to compare themselves directly to another team running the Honda engine early on and in 2017, this decision would have been avoided if they had in my view.
kambites said:
They spent all of last year claiming their chassis was wonderful and everything was Honda's fault... if they do that and then swap engines and their car is still garbage they deserve to be ridiculed.
That they've got as many points as they have is down to a combination of luck (or other team's procedural incompetence) and Alonso's ability to drive the wheels of a dog of a car, IMO. It doesn't reflect the raw pace of the car.
ETA: Personally I don't want to see Mclaren do badly as such, I just want to see them end up behind the Honda engined cars next year.
The odd thing is that with their garbage chassis they were still fourth, best of the rest, in the table. That they've got as many points as they have is down to a combination of luck (or other team's procedural incompetence) and Alonso's ability to drive the wheels of a dog of a car, IMO. It doesn't reflect the raw pace of the car.
ETA: Personally I don't want to see Mclaren do badly as such, I just want to see them end up behind the Honda engined cars next year.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 19th June 15:21
You seem to suggest that your resentment is through bigging up their chassis and blaming poor performance on some other factor. You must really hate Ferrari 'cause they brought that process to perfection. Write a note to them to say that they should do themselves down every time a journalist is within earshot.
You say "That they've got as many points as they have is down to a combination of luck (or other team's procedural incompetence) and Alonso's ability to drive the wheels of a dog of a car, IMO. It doesn't reflect the raw pace of the car." I think that's what they call motor racing. They have not been incompetent and have a good driver so let's moan at them.
You say you want to see McL behind the Honda engined cars. That attitude is what my original post was about. McL are one of the greats of F1. They've been in the sport for yonks. They, Williams and Brabham, made it essential for all teams to move from amateur to professional.
Here we have a team that is the most heavily criticised on PH for being absolutely useless despite it fighting for fourth place in the WDC.
Bewildering.
Derek Smith said:
The odd thing is that with their garbage chassis they were still fourth, best of the rest, in the table.
Yup, as I said above Alonso's tallent gets you a long way even with a bad car. It's clearly not as bad as the Williams, but it's also clearly not as good as the Renault. Haas are a difficult one - ludicrously quick one week then woeful the next.
I'm not "moaning" at Mclaren at all, I think they're exactly where they deserve to be - slowest of the Renault teams and somewhere in the middle of the mid-field overall. I want to see the Honda cars ahead of them because I think it's exactly what Honda deserve for sticking with the sport after being constantly implicated as the sole weak link a chain which turns out to be flawed throughout. Had Mclaren's statements about the engine and their chassis proven true putting them up with Redbull now, I'd have been delighted to see them winning races.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 19th June 17:27
kambites said:
Yup, as I said above Alonso's tallent gets you a long way even with a bad car.
It's clearly not as bad as the Williams, but it's also clearly not as good as the Renault. Haas are a difficult one - ludicrously quick one week then woeful the next.
I'm not "moaning" at Mclaren at all, I think they're exactly where they deserve to be - slowest of the Renault teams and somewhere in the middle of the mid-field overall. I want to see the Honda cars ahead of them because I think it's exactly what Honda deserve for sticking with the sport after being constantly implicated as the sole weak link a chain which turns out to be flawed throughout. Had Mclaren's statements about the engine and their chassis proven true putting them up with Redbull now, I'd have been delighted to see them winning races.
You seem to completely forgot the progress in F1. The Honda engine was clearly a weak link last year - both power and reliability. It seems likely that has been fixed a lot over the summer with the updates. However a lot of that work was done after McLaren had said they would leave, so was too late. You then also assume that the chassis from last year should be the same performance this year, whereas things can go backwards relative to others at times, especially if a decision was made late to switch to another engine supplier. It's clearly not just Honda, but Honda were a massive weak point no matter how you want to twist things. It's clearly not as bad as the Williams, but it's also clearly not as good as the Renault. Haas are a difficult one - ludicrously quick one week then woeful the next.
I'm not "moaning" at Mclaren at all, I think they're exactly where they deserve to be - slowest of the Renault teams and somewhere in the middle of the mid-field overall. I want to see the Honda cars ahead of them because I think it's exactly what Honda deserve for sticking with the sport after being constantly implicated as the sole weak link a chain which turns out to be flawed throughout. Had Mclaren's statements about the engine and their chassis proven true putting them up with Redbull now, I'd have been delighted to see them winning races.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 19th June 17:27
I'm not saying the Honda engine wasn't a weak link, or even that it wasn't the weakest point in the car. Just that Mclaren should have spent more time getting their own house in order and less seaking to blame someone else for their entire performance deficit.
Personally I think Honda deserve to be ahead of Mclaren, at least on the basis of attitude and ethos. That doesn't mean I hate Mclaren by any means; just that I personally think Honda are more deserving. I really do hope Mclaren can ultimately sort themselves out, but I think they need to have a very long hard look at their attitude before that's going to happen.
Personally I think Honda deserve to be ahead of Mclaren, at least on the basis of attitude and ethos. That doesn't mean I hate Mclaren by any means; just that I personally think Honda are more deserving. I really do hope Mclaren can ultimately sort themselves out, but I think they need to have a very long hard look at their attitude before that's going to happen.
kambites said:
I'm not saying the Honda engine wasn't a weak link, or even that it wasn't the weakest point in the car. Just that Mclaren should have spent more time getting their own house in order and less seaking to blame someone else for their entire performance deficit.
Personally I think Honda deserve to be ahead of Mclaren, at least on the basis of attitude and ethos. That doesn't mean I hate Mclaren by any means; just that I personally think Honda are more deserving. I really do hope Mclaren can ultimately sort themselves out, but I think they need to have a very long hard look at their attitude before that's going to happen.
Despite being a McL fan since 1984 I have my doubts they will 'sort themselves out', at least not under the current regs. However, McL has given us all some magic memories. Whilst not a rabid Hamilton fan, at least not at the time, I was in a group of friends watching the last race of the season, the Brazil GP, when he took the WDC on the last lap on the last corner. We were all jumping in the air, baskslapping and cheering.Personally I think Honda deserve to be ahead of Mclaren, at least on the basis of attitude and ethos. That doesn't mean I hate Mclaren by any means; just that I personally think Honda are more deserving. I really do hope Mclaren can ultimately sort themselves out, but I think they need to have a very long hard look at their attitude before that's going to happen.
There has been any number of great memories courtesy of McLaren.
Say what you like about Dennis but he's an enthusiast for the sport. I saw him get into the #1 McLaren F1 car at Goodwood before going up the hill and he almost caressed it. I went up and chatted to him. He was over the moon, not only with a nerd approaching, but because of the history he was seated in. When the boss of F1 seemed to be in it for the money, and his little me in it for the boost to his ego - and the money - Dennis was a refreshing change (I accept that money was a motivator of course). If he'd been Italian they'd be singing his praises despite his weaknesses and mistakes.
Dennis leaving F1 was not good for the sport. He weathered a lot of ill-fortune. He was blamed for the actions of a high up team member of Ferrari and the resulting attack on his team meant the loss of competitiveness. Yet he stuck it out.
We don't celebrate our successes in this country. Dennis is a character and much as Ferrari was yet those who criticise him most are his countrymen. Very, very strange. He's criticised for his management style, yet a friend of mine dealt with him for a sponsorship deal. He found him honest, open and, uniquely in the business, trusting. He's a different guy away from the press, but then that goes for the vast majority and should not surprise anyone.
Non F1 managers criticise his style on this an other F1 forums. That's the same style that made him the most successful British F1 team owner. Who to believe, eh?
I'll be happy for Honda to regain even some of the success of some of their previous times in F1. How could anyone not, especially anyone whose heard their V12 in action. However, like McL, I don't think they'll get their house in order before the end of the current regs. I'd be even happier for McL to sort out their chassis and start to push for third spot.
I don't want any F1 team to fail. I don't want any particular one to do worse than any other. I certainly do not want to denigrate British success stories.
NRS said:
No, they did it a few times. Then everyone kept repeating it at every race. Any other team does basically the same - RB did much worse with Renault for example.
I would also say a lot of the Honda improvement this season could be placed on Gasly, as he is doing far better than his team mate.
To be fair to Hartley, he was faster than Gasly over the last 2 race weekends, he just didn't qualy cleanly in Monaco and then didn't even finish the first lap in Canada when Stroll lost his head. He qualified well ahead of Gasly in Canada.I would also say a lot of the Honda improvement this season could be placed on Gasly, as he is doing far better than his team mate.
I'm loving that 1/2 the forum now assumes that the Honda engine is going to be good next year. Has any Honda F1 engine been good since 1992?
Honda are still clearly in the worst position for reliability. It's hard to say if it's still thirstier than a Geordie at a free bar - they've not had many races run clean enough to see late race pace. penalties like last year are coming for most ,- but plenty more for TR than McL. Check out how few bits they have left in limit:
. Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/8s79rl/...
The season is 1/3 of the way in....
Honda are still clearly in the worst position for reliability. It's hard to say if it's still thirstier than a Geordie at a free bar - they've not had many races run clean enough to see late race pace. penalties like last year are coming for most ,- but plenty more for TR than McL. Check out how few bits they have left in limit:
. Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/8s79rl/...The season is 1/3 of the way in....
McLaren are dead to me.
"My" team for so many years and I didn't agree with everything Ron said or did but he was McLaren in the same way that Ferrari, was and always will be Enzo.
Had some Arabs have screwed Enzo out of his company they may not enjoy the undying support they still attract but they didn't. No McLaren aren't Bruce, papaya and Kiwis on the nose-they're chevrons, grey, even tiles and a mechanic who built an empire.
I like Mercedes, mainly as I like Hamilton but if there's any team I want to support-it's Red Bull. For so long I didn't get Horner but now I do and I think he's great, Newey too.
I guess I'm a people person.
"My" team for so many years and I didn't agree with everything Ron said or did but he was McLaren in the same way that Ferrari, was and always will be Enzo.
Had some Arabs have screwed Enzo out of his company they may not enjoy the undying support they still attract but they didn't. No McLaren aren't Bruce, papaya and Kiwis on the nose-they're chevrons, grey, even tiles and a mechanic who built an empire.
I like Mercedes, mainly as I like Hamilton but if there's any team I want to support-it's Red Bull. For so long I didn't get Horner but now I do and I think he's great, Newey too.
I guess I'm a people person.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
McLaren are dead to me.
"My" team for so many years and I didn't agree with everything Ron said or did but he was McLaren in the same way that Ferrari, was and always will be Enzo.
Had some Arabs have screwed Enzo out of his company they may not enjoy the undying support they still attract but they didn't. No McLaren aren't Bruce, papaya and Kiwis on the nose-they're chevrons, grey, even tiles and a mechanic who built an empire.
I like Mercedes, mainly as I like Hamilton but if there's any team I want to support-it's Red Bull. For so long I didn't get Horner but now I do and I think he's great, Newey too.
I guess I'm a people person.
Chevron had nothing to do with McLaren."My" team for so many years and I didn't agree with everything Ron said or did but he was McLaren in the same way that Ferrari, was and always will be Enzo.
Had some Arabs have screwed Enzo out of his company they may not enjoy the undying support they still attract but they didn't. No McLaren aren't Bruce, papaya and Kiwis on the nose-they're chevrons, grey, even tiles and a mechanic who built an empire.
I like Mercedes, mainly as I like Hamilton but if there's any team I want to support-it's Red Bull. For so long I didn't get Horner but now I do and I think he's great, Newey too.
I guess I'm a people person.
McLaren is it's entire history, a large and successful part of which was pre Ron.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
McLaren are dead to me.
"My" team for so many years and I didn't agree with everything Ron said or did but he was McLaren in the same way that Ferrari, was and always will be Enzo.
Had some Arabs have screwed Enzo out of his company they may not enjoy the undying support they still attract but they didn't. No McLaren aren't Bruce, papaya and Kiwis on the nose-they're chevrons, grey, even tiles and a mechanic who built an empire.
I like Mercedes, mainly as I like Hamilton but if there's any team I want to support-it's Red Bull. For so long I didn't get Horner but now I do and I think he's great, Newey too.
I guess I'm a people person.
What a very strange post."My" team for so many years and I didn't agree with everything Ron said or did but he was McLaren in the same way that Ferrari, was and always will be Enzo.
Had some Arabs have screwed Enzo out of his company they may not enjoy the undying support they still attract but they didn't. No McLaren aren't Bruce, papaya and Kiwis on the nose-they're chevrons, grey, even tiles and a mechanic who built an empire.
I like Mercedes, mainly as I like Hamilton but if there's any team I want to support-it's Red Bull. For so long I didn't get Horner but now I do and I think he's great, Newey too.
I guess I'm a people person.
Some Gump said:
I'm loving that 1/2 the forum now assumes that the Honda engine is going to be good next year. Has any Honda F1 engine been good since 1992?
Honda are still clearly in the worst position for reliability. It's hard to say if it's still thirstier than a Geordie at a free bar - they've not had many races run clean enough to see late race pace. penalties like last year are coming for most ,- but plenty more for TR than McL. Check out how few bits they have left in limit:
. Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/8s79rl/...
The season is 1/3 of the way in....
Interesting point. I think only half of the PU elements used is due to Honda unreliability, the drivers had a few crashes which accounts for the rest.Honda are still clearly in the worst position for reliability. It's hard to say if it's still thirstier than a Geordie at a free bar - they've not had many races run clean enough to see late race pace. penalties like last year are coming for most ,- but plenty more for TR than McL. Check out how few bits they have left in limit:
. Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/8s79rl/...The season is 1/3 of the way in....
It has been my impression that TR had a clear mandate for this year, to make the Honda look good. They appear to run low drag setups on most occasions this year and seem to pursue this philosophy more than other teams in the races so far. Bearing this in mind, I don't remember seeing any obvious fuel saving, more than other teams unlike last year with McLaren when later in the year, the combustion concept was still new.
The Canada update is clearly a big one and it's only one race old so I'm surprised RBR have decided to go for it. I expected them to wait atleast a couple of races before making a decision. From memory the most mileage covered by the first spec of Honda is 5 races. For Honda's sake I hope their spec 2 runs reliably for the next 6 races. If not, there is going to be some nervous people up and down the pitlane.
RBR will be expecting to challenge for the title next year as they already have a sniff this year but reliability is a sticking point. Newey's cars are not known to be designed for reliability. I await further developments with interest.
The pitiful phrase that some journalists threw at McLaren earlier this year comes to mind. They've got nowhere to hide...
Dr Z said:
Interesting point. I think only half of the PU elements used is due to Honda unreliability, the drivers had a few crashes which accounts for the rest.
It has been my impression that TR had a clear mandate for this year, to make the Honda look good. They appear to run low drag setups on most occasions this year and seem to pursue this philosophy more than other teams in the races so far. Bearing this in mind, I don't remember seeing any obvious fuel saving, more than other teams unlike last year with McLaren when later in the year, the combustion concept was still new.
The Canada update is clearly a big one and it's only one race old so I'm surprised RBR have decided to go for it. I expected them to wait atleast a couple of races before making a decision. From memory the most mileage covered by the first spec of Honda is 5 races. For Honda's sake I hope their spec 2 runs reliably for the next 6 races. If not, there is going to be some nervous people up and down the pitlane.
RBR will be expecting to challenge for the title next year as they already have a sniff this year but reliability is a sticking point. Newey's cars are not known to be designed for reliability. I await further developments with interest.
The pitiful phrase that some journalists threw at McLaren earlier this year comes to mind. They've got nowhere to hide...
yup, RB will undoubtedly tell Honda to focus on development for next year rather than results this year, rather than walk the tightrope of trying to do both as they had to do at mclaren. It has been my impression that TR had a clear mandate for this year, to make the Honda look good. They appear to run low drag setups on most occasions this year and seem to pursue this philosophy more than other teams in the races so far. Bearing this in mind, I don't remember seeing any obvious fuel saving, more than other teams unlike last year with McLaren when later in the year, the combustion concept was still new.
The Canada update is clearly a big one and it's only one race old so I'm surprised RBR have decided to go for it. I expected them to wait atleast a couple of races before making a decision. From memory the most mileage covered by the first spec of Honda is 5 races. For Honda's sake I hope their spec 2 runs reliably for the next 6 races. If not, there is going to be some nervous people up and down the pitlane.
RBR will be expecting to challenge for the title next year as they already have a sniff this year but reliability is a sticking point. Newey's cars are not known to be designed for reliability. I await further developments with interest.
The pitiful phrase that some journalists threw at McLaren earlier this year comes to mind. They've got nowhere to hide...
Sucks if you're Brandon Hartley - maybe that's why RBs attitude to him softened so suddenly, they settled on the Honda so wanted someone mature and consistent to help develop the engine then will f' him off at the end of the year?
jsf said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
McLaren are dead to me.
"My" team for so many years and I didn't agree with everything Ron said or did but he was McLaren in the same way that Ferrari, was and always will be Enzo.
Had some Arabs have screwed Enzo out of his company they may not enjoy the undying support they still attract but they didn't. No McLaren aren't Bruce, papaya and Kiwis on the nose-they're chevrons, grey, even tiles and a mechanic who built an empire.
I like Mercedes, mainly as I like Hamilton but if there's any team I want to support-it's Red Bull. For so long I didn't get Horner but now I do and I think he's great, Newey too.
I guess I'm a people person.
Chevron had nothing to do with McLaren."My" team for so many years and I didn't agree with everything Ron said or did but he was McLaren in the same way that Ferrari, was and always will be Enzo.
Had some Arabs have screwed Enzo out of his company they may not enjoy the undying support they still attract but they didn't. No McLaren aren't Bruce, papaya and Kiwis on the nose-they're chevrons, grey, even tiles and a mechanic who built an empire.
I like Mercedes, mainly as I like Hamilton but if there's any team I want to support-it's Red Bull. For so long I didn't get Horner but now I do and I think he's great, Newey too.
I guess I'm a people person.
McLaren is it's entire history, a large and successful part of which was pre Ron.
And McLaren's pre-Ron history might be important to you but it isn't to me, just as I don't think of Mercedes as Brawn and Honda or BAR.It's just an opinion
suffolk009 said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
McLaren are dead to me.
"My" team for so many years and I didn't agree with everything Ron said or did but he was McLaren in the same way that Ferrari, was and always will be Enzo.
Had some Arabs have screwed Enzo out of his company they may not enjoy the undying support they still attract but they didn't. No McLaren aren't Bruce, papaya and Kiwis on the nose-they're chevrons, grey, even tiles and a mechanic who built an empire.
I like Mercedes, mainly as I like Hamilton but if there's any team I want to support-it's Red Bull. For so long I didn't get Horner but now I do and I think he's great, Newey too.
I guess I'm a people person.
What a very strange post."My" team for so many years and I didn't agree with everything Ron said or did but he was McLaren in the same way that Ferrari, was and always will be Enzo.
Had some Arabs have screwed Enzo out of his company they may not enjoy the undying support they still attract but they didn't. No McLaren aren't Bruce, papaya and Kiwis on the nose-they're chevrons, grey, even tiles and a mechanic who built an empire.
I like Mercedes, mainly as I like Hamilton but if there's any team I want to support-it's Red Bull. For so long I didn't get Horner but now I do and I think he's great, Newey too.
I guess I'm a people person.
We see just the one side of him on TV and many commentators are less than kind to him. McLaren, together with Williams and Brabham, raised the standard in F1 and all of a sudden it became professional. If you still wanted to play at the sport then you had to play at the back. It was these teams, rather than Ecclestone organising weekend trips, that made the sport what it is today to a great extent, and the biggest. McL's motto used to be 'The Business of Winning', and for good reason.
I'll stick with McL and hope, against reason and logic, that it will turn round. I doubt it will but then that's sport. But it is not the same.
I know, by the way, that Ecclestone was i/c Brabham during the years when engineering standards shot up. Indeed, their cars were always the best prepared on the grid (oh! that beautiful Murray-designed BT54. Shame it only won one race.). He did more for the sport in those years than he ever did once he jacked in F1.
I'm not quite so certain as others seem to be that Honda will get their act together. The current regs are counting down the days and there will probably be changes in that time. Honda might think they stand a better chance with the new regs or by opting out completely. Either way, I can't see them considering continuing with their massive investment is such a good idea. I can see Merc leaving before the new regs and that will leave the field clear for Honda maybe?
Derek Smith said:
Despite being a McL fan since 1984 I have my doubts they will 'sort themselves out', at least not under the current regs. However, McL has given us all some magic memories. Whilst not a rabid Hamilton fan, at least not at the time, I was in a group of friends watching the last race of the season, the Brazil GP, when he took the WDC on the last lap on the last corner. We were all jumping in the air, baskslapping and cheering.
There has been any number of great memories courtesy of McLaren.
Say what you like about Dennis but he's an enthusiast for the sport. I saw him get into the #1 McLaren F1 car at Goodwood before going up the hill and he almost caressed it. I went up and chatted to him. He was over the moon, not only with a nerd approaching, but because of the history he was seated in. When the boss of F1 seemed to be in it for the money, and his little me in it for the boost to his ego - and the money - Dennis was a refreshing change (I accept that money was a motivator of course). If he'd been Italian they'd be singing his praises despite his weaknesses and mistakes.
Dennis leaving F1 was not good for the sport. He weathered a lot of ill-fortune. He was blamed for the actions of a high up team member of Ferrari and the resulting attack on his team meant the loss of competitiveness. Yet he stuck it out.
We don't celebrate our successes in this country. Dennis is a character and much as Ferrari was yet those who criticise him most are his countrymen. Very, very strange. He's criticised for his management style, yet a friend of mine dealt with him for a sponsorship deal. He found him honest, open and, uniquely in the business, trusting. He's a different guy away from the press, but then that goes for the vast majority and should not surprise anyone.
Non F1 managers criticise his style on this an other F1 forums. That's the same style that made him the most successful British F1 team owner. Who to believe, eh?
I'll be happy for Honda to regain even some of the success of some of their previous times in F1. How could anyone not, especially anyone whose heard their V12 in action. However, like McL, I don't think they'll get their house in order before the end of the current regs. I'd be even happier for McL to sort out their chassis and start to push for third spot.
I don't want any F1 team to fail. I don't want any particular one to do worse than any other. I certainly do not want to denigrate British success stories.
I can't argue with any of that. Very well said, very good points made.There has been any number of great memories courtesy of McLaren.
Say what you like about Dennis but he's an enthusiast for the sport. I saw him get into the #1 McLaren F1 car at Goodwood before going up the hill and he almost caressed it. I went up and chatted to him. He was over the moon, not only with a nerd approaching, but because of the history he was seated in. When the boss of F1 seemed to be in it for the money, and his little me in it for the boost to his ego - and the money - Dennis was a refreshing change (I accept that money was a motivator of course). If he'd been Italian they'd be singing his praises despite his weaknesses and mistakes.
Dennis leaving F1 was not good for the sport. He weathered a lot of ill-fortune. He was blamed for the actions of a high up team member of Ferrari and the resulting attack on his team meant the loss of competitiveness. Yet he stuck it out.
We don't celebrate our successes in this country. Dennis is a character and much as Ferrari was yet those who criticise him most are his countrymen. Very, very strange. He's criticised for his management style, yet a friend of mine dealt with him for a sponsorship deal. He found him honest, open and, uniquely in the business, trusting. He's a different guy away from the press, but then that goes for the vast majority and should not surprise anyone.
Non F1 managers criticise his style on this an other F1 forums. That's the same style that made him the most successful British F1 team owner. Who to believe, eh?
I'll be happy for Honda to regain even some of the success of some of their previous times in F1. How could anyone not, especially anyone whose heard their V12 in action. However, like McL, I don't think they'll get their house in order before the end of the current regs. I'd be even happier for McL to sort out their chassis and start to push for third spot.
I don't want any F1 team to fail. I don't want any particular one to do worse than any other. I certainly do not want to denigrate British success stories.
I'm a Mclaren fan at heart but confess to being guilty of pointing the finger at Ron for helping get the team into the current state it is in. Blaming him almost exclusively if I'm honest. Forgetting all the success I watched him be responsible for. Rooting for the man when in the thick of the very personal war Mad Max was waging against him through the years. Only to finger point of late.
Shame on me for my hypocrisy and being guilty of forgetting all those things you wrote. Well said Derek.
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