Honda - another disaster ?
Discussion
Dakkon said:
They are but the Bahrain Sovereign Fund has pumped a lot of cash into McLaren to keep everything going, another reason they got rid of Ron was that they want return on their investment which was not happening with Ron at the helm, hence he was maneuvered out of the board.
Didn't he front up a buyer for the whole group but was then turned down?belleair302 said:
I still think McLaren Group will offload the F1 team before an IPO and the investors will walk away within a decade holding just a small quota of shares. F1 doesnt work with the vision of tomorrow sadly.
Sadly , when talk about motor racing now involves terms like 'IPO' and 'investor' , let alone 'brand' ,it illustrates only how far down the pan it has slipped.... FeelingLucky said:
Dakkon said:
rubystone said:
Dakkon said:
Wise words here, if they fail to get a title sponsor this year then there will be real question marks over their survival in the coming years, they are heading towards a critical point in their history.
Why do people think the team won't be able to survive? The rest of the McLaren group is profitable and their road car division trades heavily on the F1 link. This notion of a 'title sponsor' with deep pockets covering a large chunk of the operating budget has been dismissed by many in the business as being a thing of the past. In essence Honda is the title sponsor if one looks at which partner pays the most.I'm sure that many people are impressed by Williams having Martini as a title sponsor? In reality that deal isn't worth anything like what it should be worth given the exposure Martini gets on the car. I can't recall the figures, but they are 'low'.
I predict that unlike RD, ZB will cut the rate card and sign someone as 'title sponsor' for 2018 just to take the heat out of this.
All of these investment costs are yet to be repaid, but it's immaterial, as it's a separate company.
The various profits being made by various McLaren subsidiaries is dwarfed by the annual spend of the F1 team.
Much of the bankrolling up to now has been Honda. How long do believe that will last? Neither entity are in this to be a laughing stock, how much longer do you believe either will let things go on as they are?
Mumtalakat have also poured untold millions into McLaren and are keen to see some return.
Make no mistake the clock IS ticking. And there's not long to go.
The recent R&D into new models, expansion costs, costs to run two shifts but barely an increase in actual numbers of cars per day coupled with not winning in F1 and no title sponsor all add up.
I realise you have a completely different view Rubystone, but personally I don't think McLaren are as financially secure as they like to make out.
rubystone said:
Dakkon said:
They are but the Bahrain Sovereign Fund has pumped a lot of cash into McLaren to keep everything going, another reason they got rid of Ron was that they want return on their investment which was not happening with Ron at the helm, hence he was maneuvered out of the board.
Didn't he front up a buyer for the whole group but was then turned down?Dakkon said:
It is alleged that Ron got two billion in investment and funding mainly from some Chinese backers but his offer / bid was turned down, partly why Ron was not happy that the Lego sponsor fell through as he was hoping to use money from that to buy back the company, again, all rumour and gossip.
Ron, McLaren and Lego? Now that I would have loved to see 
I'm almost certain that there's more to this than just Honda (McL's lack of performance I mean). I think their aero needs a long hard look at too. So what the test has shown up is that a) they lack power b) they lack aero and c) they lack reliability.
Now I realise that Honda are bringing an updgrade in power to the next test next week (the melbourne engine spec I gather) so perhaps that might help a little but I think I've read reports that both drivers were struggling to get the power down any near as early as the others coming out of corners. That points to an aero issue(s) imo.
At least their brakes work (Haas take note) - it might be the only thing that keeps them ahead of the Americans....
I sincerely hope that they sort things out pronto - that in fact they were running extremely heavy fuel loads, that they were running on engine power 6 rather than 11, that the aero was deliberately vague in order to see how little they could get away with etc etc - otherwise I fear they are going to be looking at the backs of a hell of alot of F1 cars and a hell of alot of Blue flags waving during races....
Now I realise that Honda are bringing an updgrade in power to the next test next week (the melbourne engine spec I gather) so perhaps that might help a little but I think I've read reports that both drivers were struggling to get the power down any near as early as the others coming out of corners. That points to an aero issue(s) imo.
At least their brakes work (Haas take note) - it might be the only thing that keeps them ahead of the Americans....
I sincerely hope that they sort things out pronto - that in fact they were running extremely heavy fuel loads, that they were running on engine power 6 rather than 11, that the aero was deliberately vague in order to see how little they could get away with etc etc - otherwise I fear they are going to be looking at the backs of a hell of alot of F1 cars and a hell of alot of Blue flags waving during races....
rev-erend said:
You have gotta feel for McLaren and Honda.
I'm not sure I feel for them. Renault have jumped in with a clean sheet design and appear to have done a pretty good job. Force India operate on a relative shoe string yet are now generally mixing in with the 'best of the rest' behind Mercedes.Clearly there are fundamental issues at McLaren as a company (the culture has always seemed a little odd) incompatible with running a successful team. Lots of ex staff/drivers have alluded to a stifling work culture in the past few years.
McLaren appear to be going down the Toyota route of essentially burning money with nothing to show for it.
ukaskew said:
McLaren appear to be going down the Toyota route of essentially burning money with nothing to show for it.
Yes, and everyone blames the arrival of the Honda power unit, yet McLaren were going downhill long before then.Their last couple of seasons with Mercedes power didn't yield much in the way of results. If you look at 2014, apart from a lucky double podium in the first race of the season, they had a very lacklustre year. A few 4th places was the best they could manage - Australia aside, only a bit better than last year (and with clearly the best power unit at the time).
Seems there needs to be a very big shake-up somewhere.
stevesuk said:
Yes, and everyone blames the arrival of the Honda power unit, yet McLaren were going downhill long before then.
Their last couple of seasons with Mercedes power didn't yield much in the way of results. If you look at 2014, apart from a lucky double podium in the first race of the season, they had a very lacklustre year. A few 4th places was the best they could manage - Australia aside, only a bit better than last year (and with clearly the best power unit at the time).
Seems there needs to be a very big shake-up somewhere.
Indeed, I vaguely recall Hamilton having a rant at how sTheir last couple of seasons with Mercedes power didn't yield much in the way of results. If you look at 2014, apart from a lucky double podium in the first race of the season, they had a very lacklustre year. A few 4th places was the best they could manage - Australia aside, only a bit better than last year (and with clearly the best power unit at the time).
Seems there needs to be a very big shake-up somewhere.
t the car was, when he was trailing down the bottom of the field with it.Though the chassis is not that bad on the data, but if the engine can't provide the power to get the car around the track properly everything will suffer.
Not good that Honda are basically saying their engine is crap, wonder how long they will continue the partnership.
The frustrating thing is the McLaren-Honda disaster is bad for the sport. The Honda element in particular is going to put off other manufacturers entering to take on Mercedes. Even Renault and Ferrari are mostly there by now. Sadly for everyone else Mercedes seem to still find some headroom!
It's a combination of problems for McLaren. Honda engine issues sure, but also fundamental lack of aero and chassis sophistication compared to the Mercedes, Red Bull and Ferrari. Watch Alonso for the limited time he has been out there. He can't step on the gas at the same time as the other cars and is working the steering wheel a lot more. Oversteer and traction issues.
pits said:
Not good that Honda are basically saying their engine is crap, wonder how long they will continue the partnership.
I have worked extensively with Japanese contractors and sub-contractors. Hasegawa-san's willingness to openly admit that they are underachieving, do not know whether they have a solution etc is very uncharacteristic of Japanese business people in my experience. I find his say so quite concerning for that reason.HustleRussell said:
pits said:
Not good that Honda are basically saying their engine is crap, wonder how long they will continue the partnership.
I have worked extensively with Japanese contractors and sub-contractors. Hasegawa-san's willingness to openly admit that they are underachieving, do not know whether they have a solution etc is very uncharacteristic of Japanese business people in my experience. I find his say so quite concerning for that reason.WestyCarl said:
HustleRussell said:
pits said:
Not good that Honda are basically saying their engine is crap, wonder how long they will continue the partnership.
I have worked extensively with Japanese contractors and sub-contractors. Hasegawa-san's willingness to openly admit that they are underachieving, do not know whether they have a solution etc is very uncharacteristic of Japanese business people in my experience. I find his say so quite concerning for that reason.Ron blocked Honda using another team as well which would have aided more tokens and more development.
Same time, who honestly wants that s
te PU? I'm gutted really as I love McLaren and Alonso is my main man, but I will not be surprised if he walks this year, waste of talent being in that s
t pig, half tempted to buy a NSX motor, turbo the fker and then deliver it to thempits said:
WestyCarl said:
HustleRussell said:
pits said:
Not good that Honda are basically saying their engine is crap, wonder how long they will continue the partnership.
I have worked extensively with Japanese contractors and sub-contractors. Hasegawa-san's willingness to openly admit that they are underachieving, do not know whether they have a solution etc is very uncharacteristic of Japanese business people in my experience. I find his say so quite concerning for that reason.Ron blocked Honda using another team as well which would have aided more tokens and more development.
Same time, who honestly wants that s
te PU? I'm gutted really as I love McLaren and Alonso is my main man, but I will not be surprised if he walks this year, waste of talent being in that s
t pig, half tempted to buy a NSX motor, turbo the fker and then deliver it to themI kind of like Ron and Mclaren, but really can't see this working.
WestyCarl said:
My 20 yrs experience of working in Japanese corporations tells me they will never succeed in F1. They are far to slow in decision making (usually by committee) and far too conservative minded in everything but especially Engineering. This trait is likely magnified in such a public sport.
I kind of like Ron and Mclaren, but really can't see this working.
Honda didn't do too badly in F1 in the late '80s.....I kind of like Ron and Mclaren, but really can't see this working.
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