Honda - another disaster ?

[cuprabob]

aeropilot said:

cuprabob said:

Jonnny said:

Makes you wonder why Honda got back into it, and why they didn't do it properly and have failed miserably.

I think they quite simply underestimated the task. Although with the resources they have at their disposal I'm surprised they haven't really progressed over the last couple of years.

Toyota weren't short of resources either - and they didn't exactly produce the goods either over the years they tried.

Honda aren't exactly covering themselves in glory in bike racing (both short circuit and road racing) at the moment either, so maybe there's a much bigger corporate issue at play here.

Good point...

[carl_w]

aeropilot said:

Toyota weren't short of resources either - and they didn't exactly produce the goods either over the years they tried.

I thought Toyota's issue was that they thought they could run the whole operation out of Japan, rather than buying/investing in one of the players in Europe and running the show from there.

[Crafty_]

Toyota were based in Cologne..

[carl_w]

Crafty_ said:

Toyota were based in Cologne..

Yes, Toyota Team Europe. Seems like the issue was that they weren't based in the UK. http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/11/05/how-toyota-g...

[aeropilot]

carl_w said:

aeropilot said:

Toyota weren't short of resources either - and they didn't exactly produce the goods either over the years they tried.

I thought Toyota's issue was that they thought they could run the whole operation out of Japan, rather than buying/investing in one of the players in Europe and running the show from there.

As said, that wasn't Toyota's issue, but I think its got a lot to do with Honda's though.

[Frimley111R]

rubystone said:

Unless the owners dig deep, McLaren will never develop their own engine in-house. It's nigh on a half billion dollar undertaking.

IIRC Honda's budget was a fifth of that.

[poo at Paul's]

Wh00sher said:

My understanding is the battery is be used to spool the turbo to remove lag when it is off boost,

Who'd have thunk them ebay electric turbos would have finally found a home in f1!

[anonymous-user]

Honda and McLaren are finished. At least for Honda's sake they have an option in Sauber to gain some value from the past 3 years. Who knows, if they do eventually create a competitive engine, they can buy the team and fight as a fully fledged manufacturer.

McLaren is a business that runs racing cars, the saving grace at present is the road cars don't have Honda engines in the back of them.

[RumbleOfThunder]

I'd like to see Ricardo provide an engine. Not sure if they have the resources to make such an effort but it would seem natural given their road cars.

Edited by RumbleOfThunder on Thursday 8th June 08:47

[PugwasHDJ80]

RumbleOfThunder said:

I'd like to see Ricardo provide an engine. Not sure if they have the resources to make such an effort but it would seem natural given their road cars.

Edited by RumbleOfThunder on Thursday 8th June 08:47

I like Daniel too, but asking him to drive, supply sponsorship and supply an engine too is a little unfair!

[VladD]

PugwasHDJ80 said:

RumbleOfThunder said:

I'd like to see Ricardo provide an engine. Not sure if they have the resources to make such an effort but it would seem natural given their road cars.

Edited by RumbleOfThunder on Thursday 8th June 08:47

I like Daniel too, but asking him to drive, supply sponsorship and supply an engine too is a little unfair!

Sammy Davis Junior.

He also had an eye missing

[CraigyMc]

Frimley111R said:

rubystone said:

Unless the owners dig deep, McLaren will never develop their own engine in-house. It's nigh on a half billion dollar undertaking.

IIRC Honda's budget was a fifth of that.

If you're suggesting that Honda are doing their F1 program for $100m a year, are you including paying Alonso's retainer in that, or the money they are giving to McLaren for sponsorship?

I think $100m a year is a fraction of what Honda are spending.

[Vocal Minority]

Zac Brown has basically said 'its not for a lack of effort, but they just seem lost'

that is the really worrying thing - they are trying everything but nothing is working.

It bodes ill

[rubystone]

Frimley111R said:

IIRC Honda's budget was a fifth of that.

lol

[AW111]

PugwasHDJ80 said:

I like Daniel too, but asking him to drive, supply sponsorship and supply an engine too is a little unfair!

If his name was Brabham he'd be running the team as well.

[CraigyMc]

Vocal Minority said:

Zac Brown has basically said 'its not for a lack of effort, but they just seem lost'

that is the really worrying thing - they are trying everything but nothing is working.

It bodes ill

They aren't trying everything.
They are trying everything without changing their normal way of working. (outside help, different structure, etc)

Consequently, their way of working is the problem.

[VladD]

CraigyMc said:

Frimley111R said:

rubystone said:

Unless the owners dig deep, McLaren will never develop their own engine in-house. It's nigh on a half billion dollar undertaking.

IIRC Honda's budget was a fifth of that.

If you're suggesting that Honda are doing their F1 programme for $100m a year, are you including paying Alonso's retainer in that, or the money they are giving to McLaren for sponsorship?

I think $100m a year is a fraction of what Honda are spending.

I guess it depends whether you're talking about the engine budget or the whole F1 budget.

[thegreenhell]

VladD said:

CraigyMc said:

Frimley111R said:

rubystone said:

Unless the owners dig deep, McLaren will never develop their own engine in-house. It's nigh on a half billion dollar undertaking.

IIRC Honda's budget was a fifth of that.

If you're suggesting that Honda are doing their F1 programme for $100m a year, are you including paying Alonso's retainer in that, or the money they are giving to McLaren for sponsorship?

I think $100m a year is a fraction of what Honda are spending.

I guess it depends whether you're talking about the engine budget or the whole F1 budget.

Honda's contribution to McLaren's budget is estimated at $100M per year - free engine supply, Alonso's salary, and other 'sponsorship'. The engine development budget will be several multiples of that in addition.

[HTP99]

CraigyMc said:

Vocal Minority said:

Zac Brown has basically said 'its not for a lack of effort, but they just seem lost'

that is the really worrying thing - they are trying everything but nothing is working.

It bodes ill

They aren't trying everything.
They are trying everything without changing their normal way of working. (outside help, different structure, etc)

Consequently, their way of working is the problem.

Yep most definitely.

However what will it take for them to think "hold on maybe we aren't doing this right, lets get some Europeans in and have decision making on the ground and at the coal face, thus instant" as opposed to the elongated chain of command that Japanese companies have.

[rubystone]

thegreenhell said:

Honda's contribution to McLaren's budget is estimated at $100M per year - free engine supply, Alonso's salary, and other 'sponsorship'. The engine development budget will be several multiples of that in addition.

And that's on top of the considerable investment in the technology necessary to build the engines, plus the R & D spend - my half billion dollar figure is totally related to the ramp-up cost and I wouldn't be surprised if I'm underestimating that investment.

Which is why no independent engine supplier or team (perhaps Red Bull excepted) will ever invest in an F1 engine programme without a major manufacturer involved - either as a sponsor or to build the engnes themselves.

I wonder whether Hyundai have deep enough pockets for F1?