McLaren's Next Engine Partner?
Discussion
thegreenhell said:
ChemicalChaos said:
What about the Mugen-Honda engines Jordan used to use? The Mugen name suggests they weren't an in-house Honda job
Not exactly in-house, but there are strong family ties. The founder of Mugen was the son of Mr Honda, the founder of Honda Motor Company. So although Honda Motor Co. had no direct stake in Mugen, the owner of Mugen was a major shareholder in Honda Motor Co. Honda and Mugen Honda aren't really separate.
rubystone said:
CraigyMc said:
Except for the option involving going to Ricardo to do the road car engines.
Ricardo are probably capable of doing this type of engine program (novel combustion etc).
It's really about the money.
Ricardo are a commercial operation without the capacity to do this; capability? Maybe, capacity, nope.Ricardo are probably capable of doing this type of engine program (novel combustion etc).
It's really about the money.
Ricardo has about 2700 staff, it's not a small company.
It's a much larger operation than companies like Cosworth (historically), or MB-HPE/Renault Viry/Ferrari's Scuderia F1 engine department are, today.
It's much bigger than Honda's F1 engine program started (or indeed, is to date).
Obviously all those Ricardo people are busy doing things already - basic R&D is common. They aren't really like other R&D folk, lots of them have no interest whatsoever in cars (Ricardo's car park as a lot of bicycles). It feels academic/science-y.
In any case, any program like this would necessarily involve a lot of hiring of staff into the business - just as any new program requires - but a large part of the whole point is to use experienced F1 people. That costs money, which is why I stated above "it's really about the money". With the right budget there's no doubt in my mind at all this could be done.
Having the right structure to run stuff like an F1 research organisation is something you can do if you're a company like Ricardo - used to setting up projects with a defined scope from a (usually) massive multinational who can't/won't succeed on time/budget for a given piece of engineering.
The people already there are used to this sort of thing because it's what they've always done.
Ricardo would have a much easier time setting up an F1 engine department than Honda's racing department (HRD) would have setting up an F1 team.
This sort of thing is the reason why McLaren use them for their road engines.
Honda corporate are not set up for motorsport stuff at all.
HRD are apparently some sort of halfway house between racing people and transplanted in corporate people there to get an education on how Racing works, to make the overall corporate business work better. They aren't lean, and the focus is not "pure racing" oriented.
F1 doesn't need engineers to obsess over (and take f
king ages to identify) why something failed.It needs quick solutions and well-executed novel concepts. The former is HRD, the latter is F1-type engineering.
The culture needs to change or be replaced wholesale, for this to work.
thegreenhell said:
Not exactly in-house, but there are strong family ties. The founder of Mugen was the son of Mr Honda, the founder of Honda Motor Company. So although Honda Motor Co. had no direct stake in Mugen, the owner of Mugen was a major shareholder in Honda Motor Co.
Mugen was really just an excuse to give his son something to do. But like Mechachrome, it did keep the engine side 'live'.As to McLaren subsuming Honda - the manufacturing is in Japan and I believe excluding Gilles Simon, so is the design. A McLaren employee has been very vocal on here about the state of the company's finances, but he has been rather quiet recently. If what he says is true, they wouldn't have the funds to take on any kind of engine development.
I find it interesting that Mercedes are sticking an F1 engine in the back of their AMG "Project One" Hypercar. If McLaren do get it right with Honda, there's definitely a marketing angle there. But that's a big 'If"!
CraigyMc said:
Every engine company in F1 is a commercial operation, so I don't see what that has to do with anything in here.
I'll rephrase it, just clarify what I meant. Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari did not and have not set up their engine business to make money from selling their engines on the 'open market'. These exist first and foremost to supply their works teams.
Companies such as Cosworth, Ricardo, Prodrive, Quaife, Xtrac etc are all commercial concerns who make their money by supplying technology to the 'open market'. They are not in the habit of taking a punt on developing something 'unfunded'. That's not to say they don't, but it's very rare.
CraigyMc said:
Every engine company in F1 is a commercial operation, so I don't see what that has to do with anything in here.
Ricardo has about 2700 staff, it's not a small company.
It's a much larger operation than companies like Cosworth (historically), or MB-HPE/Renault Viry/Ferrari's Scuderia F1 engine department are, today.
It's much bigger than Honda's F1 engine program started (or indeed, is to date).
Obviously all those Ricardo people are busy doing things already - basic R&D is common. They aren't really like other R&D folk, lots of them have no interest whatsoever in cars (Ricardo's car park as a lot of bicycles). It feels academic/science-y.
In any case, any program like this would necessarily involve a lot of hiring of staff into the business - just as any new program requires - but a large part of the whole point is to use experienced F1 people. That costs money, which is why I stated above "it's really about the money". With the right budget there's no doubt in my mind at all this could be done.
Having the right structure to run stuff like an F1 research organisation is something you can do if you're a company like Ricardo - used to setting up projects with a defined scope from a (usually) massive multinational who can't/won't succeed on time/budget for a given piece of engineering.
The people already there are used to this sort of thing because it's what they've always done.
Ricardo would have a much easier time setting up an F1 engine department than Honda's racing department (HRD) would have setting up an F1 team.
This sort of thing is the reason why McLaren use them for their road engines.
Honda corporate are not set up for motorsport stuff at all.
HRD are apparently some sort of halfway house between racing people and transplanted in corporate people there to get an education on how Racing works, to make the overall corporate business work better. They aren't lean, and the focus is not "pure racing" oriented.
F1 doesn't need engineers to obsess over (and take fking ages to identify) why something failed.
It needs quick solutions and well-executed novel concepts. The former is HRD, the latter is F1-type engineering.
The culture needs to change or be replaced wholesale, for this to work.
I agree it would seem to be culture. The news that Renault spotted something on the dyno, has been working on a fix in time for the first race, plays honda who havent spotted basics such as poor oil tank design, and clearly vibration issues on the dyno, and have no idea what is wrong seemingly or how to fix it.Ricardo has about 2700 staff, it's not a small company.
It's a much larger operation than companies like Cosworth (historically), or MB-HPE/Renault Viry/Ferrari's Scuderia F1 engine department are, today.
It's much bigger than Honda's F1 engine program started (or indeed, is to date).
Obviously all those Ricardo people are busy doing things already - basic R&D is common. They aren't really like other R&D folk, lots of them have no interest whatsoever in cars (Ricardo's car park as a lot of bicycles). It feels academic/science-y.
In any case, any program like this would necessarily involve a lot of hiring of staff into the business - just as any new program requires - but a large part of the whole point is to use experienced F1 people. That costs money, which is why I stated above "it's really about the money". With the right budget there's no doubt in my mind at all this could be done.
Having the right structure to run stuff like an F1 research organisation is something you can do if you're a company like Ricardo - used to setting up projects with a defined scope from a (usually) massive multinational who can't/won't succeed on time/budget for a given piece of engineering.
The people already there are used to this sort of thing because it's what they've always done.
Ricardo would have a much easier time setting up an F1 engine department than Honda's racing department (HRD) would have setting up an F1 team.
This sort of thing is the reason why McLaren use them for their road engines.
Honda corporate are not set up for motorsport stuff at all.
HRD are apparently some sort of halfway house between racing people and transplanted in corporate people there to get an education on how Racing works, to make the overall corporate business work better. They aren't lean, and the focus is not "pure racing" oriented.
F1 doesn't need engineers to obsess over (and take f
king ages to identify) why something failed.It needs quick solutions and well-executed novel concepts. The former is HRD, the latter is F1-type engineering.
The culture needs to change or be replaced wholesale, for this to work.
That seems to be difference between Renault, a F1 engine outfit, and whatever Honda currently is.
Clearly Honda have the budget, a large pool of engineers to call upon, clearly its culture & leadership that seems to be lacking.
on the vibration issue, Honda have gone for the Merc design now. I do recall when it came out about what Merc did, they said it took them months to work out how to build a shaft to do it, that didnt vibrate the engine to pieces, and Honda have gone this route and have vibration problems hmmm...
revrange said:
I agree it would seem to be culture. The news that Renault spotted something on the dyno, has been working on a fix in time for the first race, plays honda who havent spotted basics such as poor oil tank design, and clearly vibration issues on the dyno, and have no idea what is wrong seemingly or how to fix it.
That seems to be difference between Renault, a F1 engine outfit, and whatever Honda currently is.
Clearly Honda have the budget, a large pool of engineers to call upon, clearly its culture & leadership that seems to be lacking.
on the vibration issue, Honda have gone for the Merc design now. I do recall when it came out about what Merc did, they said it took them months to work out how to build a shaft to do it, that didnt vibrate the engine to pieces, and Honda have gone this route and have vibration problems hmmm...
And they have been working on them since 2010 (?) - I forget when the final regs for 2014 were published...That seems to be difference between Renault, a F1 engine outfit, and whatever Honda currently is.
Clearly Honda have the budget, a large pool of engineers to call upon, clearly its culture & leadership that seems to be lacking.
on the vibration issue, Honda have gone for the Merc design now. I do recall when it came out about what Merc did, they said it took them months to work out how to build a shaft to do it, that didnt vibrate the engine to pieces, and Honda have gone this route and have vibration problems hmmm...
Well Eric Boullier is still trying to claim McLaren would be winning with a Mercedes engine ... so maybe they should give Toto a call.
A person I know well used to work in Honda r&d and wasn't very impressed with their work 'ethic'
When I say ethic it's not really the right word, but they replace innovative engineering thinking with working excessively long hours eventually trying all options, quick developement with fear of making a decision that would reflect badly on them and their boss, so everything moves slowly up the chain.
Sounded like a nightmare for f1 type of engineering.
Honda no doubt have the ability to build world class engines, but seem to be suffering from trying to do it in house just like Toyota did.
Maybe Honda should contract Ricardo to develop the engine they have now, now that might work.
When I say ethic it's not really the right word, but they replace innovative engineering thinking with working excessively long hours eventually trying all options, quick developement with fear of making a decision that would reflect badly on them and their boss, so everything moves slowly up the chain.
Sounded like a nightmare for f1 type of engineering.
Honda no doubt have the ability to build world class engines, but seem to be suffering from trying to do it in house just like Toyota did.
Maybe Honda should contract Ricardo to develop the engine they have now, now that might work.
Gary C said:
A person I know well used to work in Honda r&d and wasn't very impressed with their work 'ethic'
When I say ethic it's not really the right word, but they replace innovative engineering thinking with working excessively long hours eventually trying all options, quick developement with fear of making a decision that would reflect badly on them and their boss, so everything moves slowly up the chain.
Sounded like a nightmare for f1 type of engineering.
Honda no doubt have the ability to build world class engines, but seem to be suffering from trying to do it in house just like Toyota did.
Maybe Honda should contract Ricardo to develop the engine they have now, now that might work.
I agree 100% - you raised some very good points. When I say ethic it's not really the right word, but they replace innovative engineering thinking with working excessively long hours eventually trying all options, quick developement with fear of making a decision that would reflect badly on them and their boss, so everything moves slowly up the chain.
Sounded like a nightmare for f1 type of engineering.
Honda no doubt have the ability to build world class engines, but seem to be suffering from trying to do it in house just like Toyota did.
Maybe Honda should contract Ricardo to develop the engine they have now, now that might work.
Gary C said:
A person I know well used to work in Honda r&d and wasn't very impressed with their work 'ethic'
When I say ethic it's not really the right word, but they replace innovative engineering thinking with working excessively long hours eventually trying all options, quick developement with fear of making a decision that would reflect badly on them and their boss, so everything moves slowly up the chain.
Sounded like a nightmare for f1 type of engineering.
Honda no doubt have the ability to build world class engines, but seem to be suffering from trying to do it in house just like Toyota did.
Maybe Honda should contract Ricardo to develop the engine they have now, now that might work.
I wonder that part of the problem is the exquisite engineering that made the honda engines so special 25 years ago has become the normWhen I say ethic it's not really the right word, but they replace innovative engineering thinking with working excessively long hours eventually trying all options, quick developement with fear of making a decision that would reflect badly on them and their boss, so everything moves slowly up the chain.
Sounded like a nightmare for f1 type of engineering.
Honda no doubt have the ability to build world class engines, but seem to be suffering from trying to do it in house just like Toyota did.
Maybe Honda should contract Ricardo to develop the engine they have now, now that might work.
sirtyro said:
If Mclaren drop Honda and want to use one of the 3 existing engine manufactures, they don't get a choice, I thought it went to a ballot where someone from the FIA would draw one of the 3 names out of a hat...someone even suggested it could be done live on TV to add more excitement.
That wouldn't work in the example you have given. If McLaren dropped Honda then the engine manufacturer supplying the least teams would be obliged to supply McLaren - which would be Honda. The rule is to prevent a team being without an engine at all. It is not there to help teams get a better engine. It would only work if Honda pulled out.
However, I doubt that the other 3 engine manufacturers would be happy to supply McLaren with competitive engines. I think it would end up with a fudge where Renault enter Dacia as another engine manufacturer using a one/two year old spec engine.
Personally I think it's Honda who want to bail out .. this level of bad PR is doing them no favours at all.
McLaren are just seeing what options are available.
If there were to design their own engine with a partner like Ricardo then its realistically gonna take a few years
but I'm not sure how long the current engine regs are supposed to last. Any one know ?
McLaren are just seeing what options are available.
If there were to design their own engine with a partner like Ricardo then its realistically gonna take a few years
but I'm not sure how long the current engine regs are supposed to last. Any one know ?
rev-erend said:
Personally I think it's Honda who want to bail out .. this level of bad PR is doing them no favours at all.
Yep, I can't see McLaren even going anywhere near another engine maker, even for exploratory talks, unless there has already been rumblings from within Honda that they might bail-out sooner rather than later.After the situation they found themselves in after the two test sessions, I'm surprised there wasn't a mass issue of ceremonial swords by the board to the F1 engine team in Japan.....
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