How to get rid of dirty air

[Dr Z]

groomi said:

Dr Z said:

You want to eliminate dirty air? Go back to the designs of 1966, apparently.



For those interested, paper from here: Ground Effect Aerodynamics of Race Cars

And yet, overtaking was prevalent through the 70's and 80's and until about midway through the 90's.

Lots of overtaking was observed in the 10s too, but I can't remember the OP enthusiastically commenting on GP threads extolling the virtues of modern GP racing then.

To use a cricket analogy, there needs to be a balance between bat and ball for a good game. In the 70s/80s/90s the disparity in car performance varied quite a bit more than now (even within the top 10 of a field), that it naturally allowed more overtakes to happen, IMO. The cars were also producing a lot of downforce, but the methods weren't as refined as it is now, which is the primary differentiator I see from back then to now. However, to my mind these aren't anymore interesting than a DRS pass, as a DRS pass with the previous generation of Pirelli tyres mimic'd exactly this big disparity in pace between cars.

There was a CFD study by race car engineering mag that suggested that a 2017 car following another just half a car length behind will have it's balance move forwards, and that the 2017 front wing design is very resistant to loss of downforce. However, the newer swept back and lower rear wings were more prone to decrease in downforce and this in turn meant the car is likely to be more oversteery, in contrast to the previous regs when the driver will experience loss of front end grip and understeer...in theory, the 2017 regs should produce a more manageable car for drivers than previous eras. Taller rear wings might have been better though. The next race coming up (China) should be very interesting in this regard, as an oversteery car should be more manageable through the turn before the DRS zone and so, should see drivers following more closely to take advantage of the slipstream/DRS effect.

But it's never one size fits all in reality, as different teams will have designed their cars with different concepts and different ways of generating downforce, and so it is to be expected that there will be a natural variation in the way different cars behave in the wake of another car. Trying to control all of this is a bit of a fool's errand, if you ask me. However, I wait with interest what Ross Brawn's group find with regards to producing regulations that could make it even more conducive for overtaking.

[angrymoby]

Nanook said:

I'm sorry you think I'm picking a fight. In future, if you don't want people to question your posts, try saying "in my opinion" instead of "in fact" when you're giving your opinion.

And I'm sorry that you're going to take this the wrong way, but your initial point comparing the lack of overtaking in rally, hillclimbing, etc. was just stupid. In my opinion.

absolutely no one thinks 'in fact' means you're making an assersion of an actual fact ...unlike like the slapping '.FACT' after a sentance (which IS really fkin' annoying' ...imo )

[Eric Mc]

Don't worry - I have developed a strategy for dealing with people like Nanook. There are a few others like him on PH (thankfully quite rare) so I know what to do from past experience.

I'm cool (as they say in the modern jargon).

[skinny]

Dirty air isn't a problem in itself. You just need to make it an advantage to the following car. So slipstreaming. You can have downforce, just not very efficient. Standardised wings could achieve this potentially, as well as saving huge amounts of money which is currently spent on a rather wasteful activity.

But then I'm old school. I want 1500bhp and minimal wings. Cars are only really interesting to watch for me when there is some tyre slip.

[groomi]

Nanook said:

groomi said:

Given how small the key components like engines and gearboxes are, I'd be interested to see the overall length restricted by half a meter but maintain the current crash standards and then see what the engineers can come up with. Surely the cars would be less aero efficient, and therefore less aero dependent?

That's an interesting point, I'd like to see a picture showing the old 3.0 V10 motor, manifolds, gearbox and ancillaries, side by side with the much more complicated, but physically smaller V6 engines with their extra batteries and all that good stuff. Smaller fuel tanks these days too, at least when compared to the non-refueling days of the V10s.

How much space at the back of the car do they need, and how much of it is space they want to make the car the shape that they want it to be.

Just look at how narrow the rear of the car is and how much is just visible floor. They have plenty of width to play with for packaging, but don't want to due to aero.

[MitchT]

Maybe a simple short-term solution would be to set the DRS to open in all the corners, thus reducing the ground effect though corners and therefore the dirty air for following cars.

[The Moose]

I personally feel the lack of overtakes is due to more professional standards.

Everyone down the grid is more professional in every element of their season. From engineering through to the driver training.

This also includes the drivers' health and fitness being much greater - when was the last time you saw a F1 driver sucking on a Marlboro Red (as Lights are for pussies) before pulling on their racing overalls?

Kids are now groomed from when they're knee high to a grasshopper to be racing drivers at the expense of almost all else. By the time you're 18, you're over the hill.

Remove the professionalism from F1 and you will get fun racing.

[MitchT]

The Moose said:

I personally feel the lack of overtakes is due to more professional standards ...

... Remove the professionalism from F1 and you will get fun racing.

Problem with this is, someone would soon get the idea that if they took good care of their health and fitness and adopted a more professional approach then they'd clean up, so everyone else would have to do the same to remain competitive. Then we'd be back at square 1.

[dgmx5]

longshot said:

For me, the simplest way to bunch the cars up and make for more racing and therefore more overtaking is to standardize the engine output.

Balance of power approaches in other series achieve that as well. I watched the World Touring Cars race in Marrakech yesterday and it was a 15 car procession from start to finish. They would have the same issues with dirty air and similar performance and nobody was moving.

[MitchT]

We keep hearing the st sound of modern F1 engines being excused by the technology's relevance to road cars, but F1's aerodynamics aren't remotely relevant to road cars, so maybe limit downforce in F1 cars to a level that would be achievable in a road car. By vastly reducing aero you'd achieve much cleaner air - design the body of the car for minimum drag and allow just enough wing to stop it being dangerously "light" at high speeds.

[Dr Z]

Dirty air?



What dirty air?

[The Moose]

MitchT said:

The Moose said:

I personally feel the lack of overtakes is due to more professional standards ...

... Remove the professionalism from F1 and you will get fun racing.

Problem with this is, someone would soon get the idea that if they took good care of their health and fitness and adopted a more professional approach then they'd clean up, so everyone else would have to do the same to remain competitive. Then we'd be back at square 1.

Of course it's not possible to achieve - partly due to the huge amounts of money involved now.

That is, in my opinion, why we don't have more exciting racing.

[revrange]

I think the key is allowing cars to follow each other very closely.

DRS is by all accounts artificial way of trying to allow the opportunity of an over take.

Certainly the 09 rules for me helped overtaking but then were pulled apart by FIA/Mosley not banning double diffusors. Also then the front wing was made higher in 11 if i recal which removed a key element of that package.

Hopefully the planned research Ross Brawn intends to do will give us cars that can follow much more closely.

Track design is also key, certain tracks also throw up more often than not good races, China, Montreal.