The Official 2017 Monaco Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**

[lee_fr200]

Sorry but to say jb doesn't know the car and it's his first drive of it to be that close to stoff who's been testing and done the last 5 gp races is amazing

I do t like stoff at all I think he's over rated and I hope jb makes him look like an amateur

[Trabi601]

lee_fr200 said:

Sorry but to say jb doesn't know the car and it's his first drive of it to be that close to stoff who's been testing and done the last 5 gp races is amazing

I do t like stoff at all I think he's over rated and I hope jb makes him look like an amateur

It's very impressive to jump in a car you've never driven before and be right on the pace of your team mate within a few laps. Especially as there has been a major regulation change this season.

[Vaud]

Trabi601 said:

It's very impressive to jump in a car you've never driven before and be right on the pace of your team mate within a few laps. Especially as there has been a major regulation change this season.

JB has been in the simulator and keeping himself fit, but yes, impressive. He's a bit like Kimi to some - an under-rated 1xWDC.

[rallycross]

Vaud said:

JB has been in the simulator and keeping himself fit, but yes, impressive. He's a bit like Kimi to some - an under-rated 1xWDC.

Hours and hours in the simulator and 17 hrs experience of racing and even winning at Monaco, don't be so surprised to see him going rather quickly this weekend.

[Vaud]

rallycross said:

Vaud said:

JB has been in the simulator and keeping himself fit, but yes, impressive. He's a bit like Kimi to some - an under-rated 1xWDC.

Hours and hours in the simulator and 17 hrs experience of racing and even winning at Monaco, don't be so surprised to see him going rather quickly this weekend.

I hope so. Hopefully the lack of long straights will help the power unit be more competitive as well? If they can get into a decent race position then easier to hold position (for sure...)

[cuprabob]

rallycross said:

Vaud said:

JB has been in the simulator and keeping himself fit, but yes, impressive. He's a bit like Kimi to some - an under-rated 1xWDC.

...and 17 hrs experience of racing

I think it's more like 17 years:-)

[Trabi601]

cuprabob said:

rallycross said:

Vaud said:

JB has been in the simulator and keeping himself fit, but yes, impressive. He's a bit like Kimi to some - an under-rated 1xWDC.

...and 17 hrs experience of racing

I think it's more like 17 years:-)

Heh!

Many top line drivers have struggled with a return after a regulation change - yes, JB has only been out since November, but these new cars are very different.

[ERIKM400]

lee_fr200 said:

Sorry but to say jb doesn't know the car and it's his first drive of it to be that close to stoff who's been testing and done the last 5 gp races is amazing

I do t like stoff at all I think he's over rated and I hope jb makes him look like an amateur

Well for the moment the "over rated rookie amateur" is ahead of "the former world champion" in free practice.

Let's be honest, I do like Jenson.
I think he's a great guy and a top F1 driver.
But he would never have been WDC without the loophole that Ross Brawn found in the regulations.

[Trabi601]

ERIKM400 said:

Well for the moment the "over rated rookie amateur" is ahead of "the former world champion" in free practice.

Let's be honest, I do like Jenson.
I think he's a great guy and a top F1 driver.
But he would never have been WDC without the loophole that Ross Brawn found in the regulations.

Exactly the same could be said of most recent WDCs, though.

Mercedes found a packaging advantage with the new hybrid cars which delivered a car 2nd only in dominance to the 1988 McLaren - and 4 titles in a row.

Red Bull found some loopholes and advantages in the previous set of regulations - which actually dated back to them being by far the best car in the 2nd half of JB's title season.

Hamilton's 2008 win was possibly the last one done in a non-dominant car, but we don't really know how that season would have been impacted had McLaren had a top notch no. 2, rather than Kovalainen.

[ERIKM400]

Trabi601 said:

ERIKM400 said:

Well for the moment the "over rated rookie amateur" is ahead of "the former world champion" in free practice.

Let's be honest, I do like Jenson.
I think he's a great guy and a top F1 driver.
But he would never have been WDC without the loophole that Ross Brawn found in the regulations.

Exactly the same could be said of most recent WDCs, though.

Mercedes found a packaging advantage with the new hybrid cars which delivered a car 2nd only in dominance to the 1988 McLaren - and 4 titles in a row.

Red Bull found some loopholes and advantages in the previous set of regulations - which actually dated back to them being by far the best car in the 2nd half of JB's title season.

Hamilton's 2008 win was possibly the last one done in a non-dominant car, but we don't really know how that season would have been impacted had McLaren had a top notch no. 2, rather than Kovalainen.

I'm not slaying Jenson Button.
Of course the car is at least as important as the driver if you want to become a F1 WDC.
But to consider Stoffel Vandoorne as an overrated rookie amateur just because Jenson as an ex WDC can almost keep up with him at Monaco is just not fair.

Stoffel has an impressive track record, winning almost every competition he entered straight on.
He has no big financial backup to get him into F1 like some other drivers.
He was picked up by the McLaren team for their driver development program pretty early on in his career because of his achievements, quite similar to Lewis Hamilton.
And in his first F1 season he has been driving for McLaren in what has to be their worst year ever. The reliability and power output of the current Honda engine is worse than a second hand revised Lada engine with 350.000km sourced from somewhere in Siberia. And as a rookie he has to accept the number 2 position in the team because his team mate is a former WDC.

So, yes, please give him a break and let him show what he is capable of in a decent car.

And no, I'm not just writing this stuff in his defence just because I'm Belgian.
I have seen him race and know what he's capable of.

[BigBen]

ERIKM400 said:

Well for the moment the "over rated rookie amateur" is ahead of "the former world champion" in free practice.

Let's be honest, I do like Jenson.
I think he's a great guy and a top F1 driver.
But he would never have been WDC without the loophole that Ross Brawn found in the regulations.

The same loophole that Williams and Toyota found and was available to his not exactly rubbish teammate?

[Vocal Minority]

Trabi601 said:

Exactly the same could be said of most recent WDCs, though.

.

Fixed

[geeks]

ERIKM400 said:

Trabi601 said:

ERIKM400 said:

Well for the moment the "over rated rookie amateur" is ahead of "the former world champion" in free practice.

Let's be honest, I do like Jenson.
I think he's a great guy and a top F1 driver.
But he would never have been WDC without the loophole that Ross Brawn found in the regulations.

Exactly the same could be said of most recent WDCs, though.

Mercedes found a packaging advantage with the new hybrid cars which delivered a car 2nd only in dominance to the 1988 McLaren - and 4 titles in a row.

Red Bull found some loopholes and advantages in the previous set of regulations - which actually dated back to them being by far the best car in the 2nd half of JB's title season.

Hamilton's 2008 win was possibly the last one done in a non-dominant car, but we don't really know how that season would have been impacted had McLaren had a top notch no. 2, rather than Kovalainen.

I'm not slaying Jenson Button.
Of course the car is at least as important as the driver if you want to become a F1 WDC.
But to consider Stoffel Vandoorne as an overrated rookie amateur just because Jenson as an ex WDC can almost keep up with him at Monaco is just not fair.

Stoffel has an impressive track record, winning almost every competition he entered straight on.
He has no big financial backup to get him into F1 like some other drivers.
He was picked up by the McLaren team for their driver development program pretty early on in his career because of his achievements, quite similar to Lewis Hamilton.
And in his first F1 season he has been driving for McLaren in what has to be their worst year ever. The reliability and power output of the current Honda engine is worse than a second hand revised Lada engine with 350.000km sourced from somewhere in Siberia. And as a rookie he has to accept the number 2 position in the team because his team mate is a former WDC.

So, yes, please give him a break and let him show what he is capable of in a decent car.

And no, I'm not just writing this stuff in his defence just because I'm Belgian.
I have seen him race and know what he's capable of.

You dont get to be GP2 (well F2 now) Champion by being st! (yes even Palmer!)

With that said Stoffel looks all at sea in and out of the car, he was side lined by McLaren too long, the jump between F2 and F1 now is significant. Arguably the early hybrid/V8 era it was probably a bit easier to make the switch than now.

Am a big JB fan so I will enjoy watching him race around while still feeling pissed off about him announcing his retirement after Silverstone thus ensuring I didn't get to go and see his last British GP!

Stoffel will come good over time I am sure but I doubt he'll still be in a McLaren when that happens!

[CraigyMc]

geeks said:

You dont get to be GP2 (well F2 now) Champion by being st! (yes even Palmer!)

With that said Stoffel looks all at sea in and out of the car, he was side lined by McLaren too long, the jump between F2 and F1 now is significant. Arguably the early hybrid/V8 era it was probably a bit easier to make the switch than now.

Am a big JB fan so I will enjoy watching him race around while still feeling pissed off about him announcing his retirement after Silverstone thus ensuring I didn't get to go and see his last British GP!

Stoffel will come good over time I am sure but I doubt he'll still be in a McLaren when that happens!

He was in super formula during his year off - and those cars are closer to F1 than F2 is.

Stoffel is a quality driver. I'm not saying that because of the press. I know people who have raced on the same team as him, and who have raced against him.

Nobody I know who has actual real 1st-hand knowledge of him has said anything other than "he's awesome" or words to that effect, and the majority of these guys are hardened racers who do not spare people's egos.

[ClockworkCupcake]

CraigyMc said:

Nobody I know who has actual real 1st-hand knowledge of him has said anything other than "he's awesome" or words to that effect, and the majority of these guys are hardened racers who do not spare people's egos.

Mere facts are never going to convince the armchair 'experts'

(I agree with you btw)

[Vaud]

ClockworkCupcake said:

CraigyMc said:

Nobody I know who has actual real 1st-hand knowledge of him has said anything other than "he's awesome" or words to that effect, and the majority of these guys are hardened racers who do not spare people's egos.

Mere facts are never going to convince the armchair 'experts'

(I agree with you btw)

I concur - the team principals have access to a lot of data and a network of people to evaluate potential drivers.

[lbc]

I don't get the obsession with either Button or Alonso as being great drivers.

They both made big mistakes in their career.

Alonso should never have left Ferrari.

Button should have left BAR/Honda long before Brawn took over, or retired after winning his title with Brawn.

Hamilton had the brains to leave Mclaren before they had the chance to ruin his career, as they have done with Alonso.

[ClockworkCupcake]

lbc said:

I don't get the obsession with either Button or Alonso as being great drivers.

They both made big mistakes in their career.

Alonso should never have left Ferrari.

Button should have left BAR/Honda long before Brawn took over, or retired after winning his title with Brawn.

Hamilton had the brains to leave Mclaren before they had the chance to ruin his career, as they have done with Alonso.

How does any of that have any relevance to whether or not they are great drivers?

Also, at the time that Hamilton left, McLaren were dominant and everyone thought he was mad to move to Mercedes Benz.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it.

Edited by ClockworkCupcake on Friday 26th May 17:57

[Hungrymc]

ClockworkCupcake said:

How does any of that have any relevance to whether or not they are great drivers?

Also, at the time that Hamilton left, McLaren were dominant and everyone thought he was mad to move to Mercedes Benz.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it.

Edited by ClockworkCupcake on Friday 26th May 17:57

To be fair, the only thing we can judge is the end result.

Did Lewis know Merc were about to dominate? He either exercised some brilliant judgment or got very lucky - 100% opposite Alonso. And most of the criticism came from McLaren and Ron fans (I think Lewis saw that Whitmarsh was / had really damaged the team, there was clear tension between them). But I guess a huge part of any drivers legacy is getting into the right car at the right time. This Ferrari spell could be brilliant for Seb!

[Crafty_]

Hungrymc said:

To be fair, the only thing we can judge is the end result.

Did Lewis know Merc were about to dominate? He either exercised some brilliant judgment or got very lucky - 100% opposite Alonso. And most of the criticism came from McLaren and Ron fans (I think Lewis saw that Whitmarsh was / had really damaged the team, there was clear tension between them). But I guess a huge part of any drivers legacy is getting into the right car at the right time. This Ferrari spell could be brilliant for Seb!

I think for Lewis it was a combination of McLaren failing to deliver and having his head turned by Brawn. I think that pretty much everyone knows that if Ross says something its a good idea to listen, at the same time McLaren looked pretty directionless under Whitmarsh's stewardship. Still a big gamble and it was a pretty brave move but I think Ross being at the helm would be a big confidence boost, especially after seeing McLaren fall apart.

Alonso ? tough one, but him moving to Ferrari has some logic - after events in 2008, Symonds and Briatore gone, the team was in disarray and had lost sponsors. Renault pulling out was a distinct possibility and even if they didn't its unlikely the money would be available for a top flight car. Ferrari came calling with a fat cheque book and to be fair at that time they had a reasonable chance of a decent car - after all he nearly did it in 2010.
The move (back) to McLaren wasn't through choice really - relationship with Ferrari had broken down, Vettel on his way, there was no alternative really. Of course, no-one expected it to be the nightmare that ensued.

With regards to drivers I do think there is an awful lot that we don't see. A driver might be compromised by any number of things - we think they are a bit st, the engineers think they did a great job in the circumstances because they have the data and insight in to the goings on. Its one of the downsides of F1 being so secretive these days. A lot of it is about attitude too - which was Alonso's downfall at Ferrari, it appears its held Wehrlein back and ruined Di Resta's career too.

For example, I can remember lots of criticism being thrown at Grosjean during his stint at Lotus, Kimi was off winning in the sister car. It later turned out that the team were playing politics and giving Kimi preferential treatment. As soon it was clear he was going to Ferrari Grosjean was unleashed and he saw some proper speed out of him, the engineers were saying he was as good as Kimi.
Since then we've seen him score solid points for Haas who, even now are only a 2 year old team.

Regardless of what happens in Monaco I don't think that it will really reflect badly on either Button or Vandoorne. Its pretty unlikely both cars will make it to the end of the race anyway.