Kubica back in an F1 car

[PhillipM]

The last couple of times Williams chased money from pay drivers over talent and technical feedback, it led to a nice tumble down the grid.

[anonymous-user]

MissChief said:

I doubt Frank is little more than a figurehead these days and has little to do with the day to day running any more. I'm surprised Claire is still deputy team principal actually and she'll likely be announced as team principal this year.

Exactly.

[anonymous-user]

jsf said:

Patrick resigned from WGPE in 2012, he hasn't been a part of the team since.
He retired from technical director role in 2004.

Yes I know he has retired. Has the team been the same since?

Real shame.

[anonymous-user]

HustleRussell said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

I would worry about Williams future without Frank Williams.

Himself and Patrick Head are Legends.

You’ll be celebrating if they struggle this season though?

ELUSIVEJIM said:

If Williams struggle in 2018 I will be celebrating.

Hypocrite.

Why a hypocrite?

The decision to take on two paying drivers for 2018 is extremely poor by whoever is now in charge.

A negative decision deserves negative results.

[Piginapoke]

I agree with EJ. Even to a long term Williams fan(atic), the current strategy of relying on pay drivers to drive income looks flawed. The only thing that matters to a F1 team is points and podiums, and the team now lacks credibility and identity.

Sad times.

[HighwayStar]

Piginapoke said:

I agree with EJ. Even to a long term Williams fan(atic), the current strategy of relying on pay drivers to drive income looks flawed. The only thing that matters to a F1 team is points and podiums, and the team now lacks credibility and identity.

Sad times.

Like you, I’m a long time Williams fan, since the Saudia day’s and I would love to see the team up there fighting for points, podiums and the win.
The current situation of pay drivers is not ideal and I’ve no doubt the team would admit this.
None us really know anything about what’s going on in the team, finances etc and easy to say Williams should have better drivers in the car.
With Paddy Lowe in there now, who has been at the sharp end for many years, I’m prepared to give Williams the benefit of the doubt. Lowe is a man who knows what is needed, who’s needed to build a a front running team... certainly way more than any of us think we do.
It’s easy to romanticise about Kubica getting drive and getting say 4th place or a podium in Australia and regular points throughout the season. Who’s to say that’s a given any more than Sirotkin will be the disaster a lot seem to think... with no evidence of either...?

[Car-Matt]

This is all a bit nonsense about pay drivers

Consider Force India

Ocon brings huge financial benefit through cash or free engines.
Perez brings a huge amount of cash also.


Does anyone moan about them being pay drivers, no, because they are fast.


The issues you guys have is that you just don’t rate Stroll and Sirotkin, nothing to do with money as almost all drivers come with Finance.


This is compound by the Williams car being poor. Should the car be a cracker this year and both drivers hitting regular 5-10 place finishes then I don’t think there would be much room to complain.

Williams main issue is that the car has been poor due to lack of funds for a number of years bar year 1 of the current engine formula where they benefitted from Merc being so far up the road.

[HighwayStar]

Car-Matt said:

This is all a bit nonsense about pay drivers

Consider Force India

Ocon brings huge financial benefit through cash or free engines.
Perez brings a huge amount of cash also.


Does anyone moan about them being pay drivers, no, because they are fast.


The issues you guys have is that you just don’t rate Stroll and Sirotkin, nothing to do with money as almost all drivers come with Finance.


This is compound by the Williams car being poor. Should the car be a cracker this year and both drivers hitting regular 5-10 place finishes then I don’t think there would be much room to complain.

Williams main issue is that the car has been poor due to lack of funds for a number of years bar year 1 of the current engine formula where they benefitted from Merc being so far up the road.

This... spot on!!

[rubystone]

MissChief said:

I doubt Frank is little more than a figurehead these days and has little to do with the day to day running any more. I'm surprised Claire is still deputy team principal actually and she'll likely be announced as team principal this year.

He’s still at the factory every day and the office next to his is well equipped to deal with any health issues. Whether he’s making any serious decisions or not, I don’t know.

On the budget questions, I’ve been given the budget figure they work to from a source in the team and it was below what I thought they worked to, a fair chunk below....Hence them chasing the cash....

[HighwayStar]

rubystone said:

MissChief said:

I doubt Frank is little more than a figurehead these days and has little to do with the day to day running any more. I'm surprised Claire is still deputy team principal actually and she'll likely be announced as team principal this year.

He’s still at the factory every day and the office next to his is well equipped to deal with any health issues. Whether he’s making any serious decisions or not, I don’t know.

On the budget questions, I’ve been given the budget figure they work to from a source in the team and it was below what I thought they worked to, a fair chunk below....Hence them chasing the cash....

Precisely, and there are various reports on the net saying their main sponsor, Petrobras, are switching to Mclaren this season.
Williams budget has been for a long time not been that of a top team and could be smaller still. The imperative is to produce a decent car with the budget they have, solid drives and good points finishes...

[anonymous-user]

Car-Matt said:

This is all a bit nonsense about pay drivers

Consider Force India

Ocon brings huge financial benefit through cash or free engines.
Perez brings a huge amount of cash also.


Does anyone moan about them being pay drivers, no, because they are fast.


The issues you guys have is that you just don’t rate Stroll and Sirotkin, nothing to do with money as almost all drivers come with Finance.


This is compound by the Williams car being poor. Should the car be a cracker this year and both drivers hitting regular 5-10 place finishes then I don’t think there would be much room to complain.

Williams main issue is that the car has been poor due to lack of funds for a number of years bar year 1 of the current engine formula where they benefitted from Merc being so far up the road.

There is a huge difference.

Ocon is backed by the junior Mercedes F1 team and not just appearing with a shed load of cash.

You are only backed by a manufacturer if you have shown real talent.

Perez too was part of the Ferrari driver academy.

Yes Stroll was part of the Ferrari academy but Sergey Sirotkin is purely being backed by an investor from Russia.

[Vaud]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

jsf said:

Patrick resigned from WGPE in 2012, he hasn't been a part of the team since.
He retired from technical director role in 2004.

Yes I know he has retired. Has the team been the same since?

Real shame.

True but Head was from a different era. Read Newey's "how to build a car" - Head seems to have been a loud bully, tightly aligned to Frank, they reinforced each other. Both ignored their key asset (Newey), until it was too late.

The loss of Newey was the start of their downfall, not Head. If they had given him management input as promised and decent equity, the late 90s would have been very different, and maybe longer?

[MissChief]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Car-Matt said:

This is all a bit nonsense about pay drivers

Consider Force India

Ocon brings huge financial benefit through cash or free engines.
Perez brings a huge amount of cash also.


Does anyone moan about them being pay drivers, no, because they are fast.


The issues you guys have is that you just don’t rate Stroll and Sirotkin, nothing to do with money as almost all drivers come with Finance.


This is compound by the Williams car being poor. Should the car be a cracker this year and both drivers hitting regular 5-10 place finishes then I don’t think there would be much room to complain.

Williams main issue is that the car has been poor due to lack of funds for a number of years bar year 1 of the current engine formula where they benefitted from Merc being so far up the road.

There is a huge difference.

Ocon is backed by the junior Mercedes F1 team and not just appearing with a shed load of cash.

You are only backed by a manufacturer if you have shown real talent.

Perez too was part of the Ferrari driver academy.

Yes Stroll was part of the Ferrari academy but Sergey Sirotkin is purely being backed by an investor from Russia.

Shedload of cash is as good as a significant discount on engines. It all affects the bottom line. I have no idea if Ocon comes with an Engine discount but FI would have been mental not to insist on one which could be in the region or €10m a season for all we know.

I believe Stroll and his Father decided to withdraw from the Ferrari Driver Academy because, in their opinion they weren't being advanced fast enough or getting opportunities that they could organise and pay for themselves.

[Car-Matt]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

There is a huge difference.

Ocon is backed by the junior Mercedes F1 team and not just appearing with a shed load of cash.

You are only backed by a manufacturer if you have shown real talent.

Perez too was part of the Ferrari driver academy.

Yes Stroll was part of the Ferrari academy but Sergey Sirotkin is purely being backed by an investor from Russia.

ELUSIVEJIM said:

There is a huge difference.

Ocon is backed by the junior Mercedes F1 team and not just appearing with a shed load of cash.

You are only backed by a manufacturer if you have shown real talent.

Perez too was part of the Ferrari driver academy.

Yes Stroll was part of the Ferrari academy but Sergey Sirotkin is purely being backed by an investor from Russia.

So EXACTLY as I said, the issue isn’t the money but your perceived view of the drivers capability.

A) Good to know you’re such an expert and have all the data to look at to make those statements
B) if Williams produced a good car AND race engineer it well then the drivers WILL produce the results. Williams issues as stated are producing cars that are not up to scratch, nothing to do with drivers. The drivers may add the last couple of % but Williams are a long way off needing that even if their assumed 2018 lineup are deficient, which given the testing times Sirotkin was faster than Kubica and Stroll was within a tenth. I REALLY don’t understand why the apparent decision to not take Kubica has blurred your vision of reality so badly. The guy wasn’t that fast in testing as is a huge risk in terms of health AND knows nothing of the Pirelli tyres. Not ideal when trying to build a decent car. If they had a strong team leader then he may be worth a punt as a number 2 but Stroll isn’t a leader and that’s not his fault or responsibility after 1 season. There is nothing wrong with the Williams (alleged) decision about Kubica.

[sgtBerbatov]

Vaud said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

jsf said:

Patrick resigned from WGPE in 2012, he hasn't been a part of the team since.
He retired from technical director role in 2004.

Yes I know he has retired. Has the team been the same since?

Real shame.

True but Head was from a different era. Read Newey's "how to build a car" - Head seems to have been a loud bully, tightly aligned to Frank, they reinforced each other. Both ignored their key asset (Newey), until it was too late.

The loss of Newey was the start of their downfall, not Head. If they had given him management input as promised and decent equity, the late 90s would have been very different, and maybe longer?

Have to agree with this. Newey, combined with Renault leaving the sport, were the biggest catalysts to Williams' demise than Head's retirement. Although, that said, the team have suffered without Head's input to a lesser degree since 2004.

Maybe Williams are full of staff from the 90's heyday who need someone like Head to give them a kick up the arse.

[anonymous-user]

Car-Matt said:

So EXACTLY as I said, the issue isn’t the money but your perceived view of the drivers capability.

A) Good to know you’re such an expert and have all the data to look at to make those statements
B) if Williams produced a good car AND race engineer it well then the drivers WILL produce the results. Williams issues as stated are producing cars that are not up to scratch, nothing to do with drivers. The drivers may add the last couple of % but Williams are a long way off needing that even if their assumed 2018 lineup are deficient, which given the testing times Sirotkin was faster than Kubica and Stroll was within a tenth. I REALLY don’t understand why the apparent decision to not take Kubica has blurred your vision of reality so badly. The guy wasn’t that fast in testing as is a huge risk in terms of health AND knows nothing of the Pirelli tyres. Not ideal when trying to build a decent car. If they had a strong team leader then he may be worth a punt as a number 2 but Stroll isn’t a leader and that’s not his fault or responsibility after 1 season. There is nothing wrong with the Williams (alleged) decision about Kubica.

If Williams produced a good car and were the fastest on the grid of course the drivers are going to perform well. But do you really think the two paying drivers Williams have signed will be stars of the future? Stroll clearly isn't but obviously we have to wait and see regarding Sirokin.

It is all very well stating Kubica was not fit and knows nothing about the Pirelli tyres but this again shows how poor Stroll is when he has the experience. Stroll was the full time Williams driver in 2017 and yet someone with a clear disadvantage and little knowledge of the new cars beats his time. Then for Sirokin to be over a second faster is pretty shocking.

Obviously with more seat time Kubica would have been much closer to Sirokin come the start of the 2018 season but where is Stroll going to find anymore speed?

Again it is clear taking on TWO paid drivers might be great in the short term but it will cost Williams more in results having at least one driver who should not be in a F1 car.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 15th January 11:30

[HustleRussell]

So Jim you believe that Stroll cannot / will not improve? Why?

Also if you now acknowledge that Sirotkin was faster than Kubica, given the fact that Stroll is contracted for two more seasons, how can you say for sure that Kubica was the only choice for Williams if they are serious about racing?

[HighwayStar]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

Car-Matt said:

So EXACTLY as I said, the issue isn’t the money but your perceived view of the drivers capability.

A) Good to know you’re such an expert and have all the data to look at to make those statements
B) if Williams produced a good car AND race engineer it well then the drivers WILL produce the results. Williams issues as stated are producing cars that are not up to scratch, nothing to do with drivers. The drivers may add the last couple of % but Williams are a long way off needing that even if their assumed 2018 lineup are deficient, which given the testing times Sirotkin was faster than Kubica and Stroll was within a tenth. I REALLY don’t understand why the apparent decision to not take Kubica has blurred your vision of reality so badly. The guy wasn’t that fast in testing as is a huge risk in terms of health AND knows nothing of the Pirelli tyres. Not ideal when trying to build a decent car. If they had a strong team leader then he may be worth a punt as a number 2 but Stroll isn’t a leader and that’s not his fault or responsibility after 1 season. There is nothing wrong with the Williams (alleged) decision about Kubica.

If Williams produced a good car and were the fastest on the grid of course the drivers are going to perform well. But do you really think the two paying drivers Williams have signed will be stars of the future? Stroll clearly isn't but obviously we have to wait and see regarding Sirokin.

It is all very well stating Kubica was not fit and knows nothing about the Pirelli tyres but this again shows how poor Stroll is when he has the experience. Stroll was the full time Williams driver in 2017 and yet someone with a clear disadvantage and little knowledge of the new cars beats his time. Then for Sirokin to be over a second faster is pretty shocking.

Obviously with more seat time Kubica would have been much closer to Sirokin come the start of the 2018 season but where is Stroll going to find anymore speed?

Again it is clear taking on TWO paid drivers might be great in the short term but it will cost Williams more in results having at least one driver who should not be in a F1 car.

Edited by ELUSIVEJIM on Monday 15th January 11:30

I doubt Williams think it's great/idea having TWO paid drivers in the car... My thinking is it's what they need for right now and hopefully as things improve they move forward with better drivers.
Jim, who would you put in the car. Not who you'd like to see in it. Who would you put in the car who is available, we know can do a good job, who isn't a pay driver? I'm not saying there isn't anyone, you're a total PITA but you know a bit too. So lets go the other way. Who?

[Vaud]

On paper there are very few:

>25 (ideally, not mandatory)
Extensive experience in the modern era F1 cars
At least a year with the Pirelli tyres
Leadership skills

I wonder if Williams were really hoping that Mercedes had found a new number 2 and not executed their option on Bottas, and got him back for 2018, having maximised their ROI in giving him up for 2017.

[anonymous-user]

HustleRussell said:

So Jim you believe that Stroll cannot / will not improve? Why?

Also if you now acknowledge that Sirotkin was faster than Kubica, given the fact that Stroll is contracted for two more seasons, how can you say for sure that Kubica was the only choice for Williams if they are serious about racing?

Stroll is purely there due to his backers. This just does not sit well with me when talent should be above someone with cash. Why do you think he was not progressing quickly at the Ferrari academy.

No I do knowledge that Sirotkin was faster than Kubica during the test. The information released by Williams proves this fact.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out during 2018 but I can only see things getting worse.