The Official 2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**

[SeeFive]

Seb's early comment about the dangerous chain reaction down the field to Lewis's brake check also proves him incorrect by his own 'logic'. I guess if there was a noticeable deceleration or brake check we may have seen some of that. But it didn't happen. If anything the cars behind Seb were further away after the initial impact.

F1 cars only decelerate rapidly (around the suggested 1g) on lifting off at high speed when the aero affect is impacting forward motion. At the speeds in this incident, aero is minimal and they continue to roll relatively well even with added drag of wide tyres - clearly not as well as an accelerating Ferrari... but there we go.

I am amazed that Seb is continuing with this line. It is clearly nonsense and Seb could quickly find a way to explain away and get to the real issue - he screwed up. And we are led to believe that his penalty was not for the rear ender, but the secondary side impact, so no need for him to keep saying they both should have got a penalty.

Man up Seb.

[Doink]

red_slr said:

It was nothing. Anyone who watched rallycross in the late 80s and early 90s will tell you that this was just handbags ...

What's rallycross got to do with it, theyre made from fibreglass panels with a lot of give, hardly the same as an F1 car, heck you may as well of said banger racing!

[LDN]

Doink said:

red_slr said:

It was nothing. Anyone who watched rallycross in the late 80s and early 90s will tell you that this was just handbags ...

What's rallycross got to do with it, theyre made from fibreglass panels with a lot of give, hardly the same as an F1 car, heck you may as well of said banger racing!

Comparing rally cross to F1! We've reached a new level of do-lally!

[carl_w]

NRS said:

carl_w said:

ash73 said:

If they said he didn't lift "entirely" it means he DID lift somewhat, otherwise they would just say he did not lift.

Completely neutral to either driver here, although I thought that Vettel acted like a petulant fool in this instance, but the wording is interesting to say the least.

Very different comparison, but with logic like that I presume you'd blame rape victims?

WT actual F?

I was just pointing out that the wording is interesting, not apportioning any blame.

[HoagieLomax]

The rage/frustration inside SV must have been off the charts to do what he did and risk his own car,the front tie rods break so easily when hit at an angle.Why would he risk the car?

Notice he steered with his right hand so the onboard camera couldn't see it.
Think about the Ferrari politics,what if he had induced a retirement and cost them the WDC.

[//j17]

ash73 said:

If they said he didn't lift "entirely" it means he DID lift somewhat, otherwise they would just say he did not lift.

Yes, he did lift. This is a generally accepted fact.

ash73 said:

So the question is how much did he lift

As stated by the FIA, by the same amount he did on that corner on the previous safety car restarts.

ash73 said:

, at a time when he should have been accelerating.

This is incorrect.

At the time of the incident the safety car lights had been switched off making the lead car the pace setter for the pack. In this situation the lead car can go as fast or as slow as he likes, provided they don't make sudden, unexpected moves (e.g. jumping on the brakes mid-straight) or perform 'fake' restarts (e.g. jumping on the gas to restart, then changing your mind).

Now a restarting F1 car goes a hell of a lot faster than a flat-out safety car so it is standard practice for the lead car to back up the pack, creating space between it and the safety car. It is also standard practice to start backing the pack up off a corner, slowing down under braking when everyone expects you to brake then not holding pace rather than speeding up.

[Leroy902]

I'm really looking forward to the rest of this season.
Lewis comes across as he thieves off this sort of one on one combat, Vettel looks like he fold like a cheap suit. Time will tell.

[motco]

//j17 said:

ash73 said:

If they said he didn't lift "entirely" it means he DID lift somewhat, otherwise they would just say he did not lift.

Yes, he did lift. This is a generally accepted fact.

ash73 said:

So the question is how much did he lift

As stated by the FIA, by the same amount he did on that corner on the previous safety car restarts.

ash73 said:

, at a time when he should have been accelerating.

This is incorrect.

At the time of the incident the safety car lights had been switched off making the lead car the pace setter for the pack. In this situation the lead car can go as fast or as slow as he likes, provided they don't make sudden, unexpected moves (e.g. jumping on the brakes mid-straight) or perform 'fake' restarts (e.g. jumping on the gas to restart, then changing your mind).

Now a restarting F1 car goes a hell of a lot faster than a flat-out safety car so it is standard practice for the lead car to back up the pack, creating space between it and the safety car. It is also standard practice to start backing the pack up off a corner, slowing down under braking when everyone expects you to brake then not holding pace rather than speeding up.

Lifted or not, he was free to choose, but that is not the point at all. The point is that SV acted in an unprofessional and potentially dangerous manner. That is what the penalty was for.

[ellroy]

But the stewards have seen the data and have stated LH did nothing untoward.

That's fairly clear cut.

[London424]

Here's the side by side. Basically Vettel got pantsed on the first one and came under pressure. He guessed wrong on the second one and ballsed up.

https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2017/6/Vettel_vs...

[Hungrymc]

ash73 said:

I don't agree. Lifting on corner exit IS an unexpected move, and they should be settling before a restart not mirroring previous laps. I'd like to see the data, evasive descriptions like "didn't lift entirely" just create questions.

Did you actually watch it and read the statements from FIA etc? Lewis slowed gently into and through the corner.

It was the end of an SC. No one else got remotely caught out because it is exactly what is expected of the lead car. Seb was trying to do the right thing - trying to be smart and to anticipate the car in fronts actions. But he made an absolute pigs ear of it and then instead of apologising, made the whole thing worse with his tantrum.

Its not complex.

[swisstoni]

Ash - be happy. Hamilton lost didn't he?

[Bristol spark]

You would think the Ferrari PR chaps would have the balls to tell Vettel to grow the fk up and admit he made an error!

As denying any wrong doing doesn't make Ferrari look very good.....

[HustleRussell]

Bristol spark said:

As denying any wrong doing doesn't make Ferrari look very good.....

Ferrari have long and illustrious history of denying any wrongdoing. Seb is a perfect fit.

(Isn't it great to have an evil German super villain again?)

ETA: Ash73, keep grinding that axe

[Hungrymc]

Bristol spark said:

You would think the Ferrari PR chaps would have the balls to tell Vettel to grow the fk up and admit he made an error!

As denying any wrong doing doesn't make Ferrari look very good.....

I don't think they can control Seb. He's a very strong character and of course a multi WDC. When someone can watch the replays, look at all the data, read so much expert opinion, and still refuse to accept what actually happened it does give some insight into how blinkered and difficult the guy is. It's not unique to Seb, I'm sure its a trait of many professional sports men at the top of their game. You can even argue that Lewis's "I want to win it right / clean" is a weakness in this sport. He might be 4 x WDC if he had been prepared to be dirty last year, particularly in the final race.

There are difficult / grey areas sometimes when F1 cars come together. When one runs another wide on the outside of a corner or squeezes one to an apex. They're so complex that the rules try to define when a car is substantially alongside another etc and even then there is situations where contact happens simply because neither would yield and both seem to have a reasonable claim to being innocent. I find it amazing that some people talk about this (where Seb simply got his anticipation very wrong and damaged both cars, and then actually drove into the other car in a temper under SC) in the same terms as one of the complex racing incidents.

[Markbarry1977]

motco said:

//j17 said:

ash73 said:

If they said he didn't lift "entirely" it means he DID lift somewhat, otherwise they would just say he did not lift.

Yes, he did lift. This is a generally accepted fact.

ash73 said:

So the question is how much did he lift

As stated by the FIA, by the same amount he did on that corner on the previous safety car restarts.

ash73 said:

, at a time when he should have been accelerating.

This is incorrect.

At the time of the incident the safety car lights had been switched off making the lead car the pace setter for the pack. In this situation the lead car can go as fast or as slow as he likes, provided they don't make sudden, unexpected moves (e.g. jumping on the brakes mid-straight) or perform 'fake' restarts (e.g. jumping on the gas to restart, then changing your mind).

Now a restarting F1 car goes a hell of a lot faster than a flat-out safety car so it is standard practice for the lead car to back up the pack, creating space between it and the safety car. It is also standard practice to start backing the pack up off a corner, slowing down under braking when everyone expects you to brake then not holding pace rather than speeding up.

Lifted or not, he was free to choose, but that is not the point at all. The point is that SV acted in an unprofessional and potentially dangerous manner. That is what the penalty was for.

Another point is that on the previous restart hamiltons pit crew warned him that he had nearly overtaken the safety car before the safety car line. (Lewis replied that it wasn't that close). Probably with that in mind he was allowing longer for the safety car to clear off out the way before gunning it down the track for the restart.

[HustleRussell]

ash73 said:

Apparently this is what the FIA means by "not lifting off entirely", the HUD shows zero throttle and brakes applied after the apex:

https://streamable.com/phz5p

Apex speed 60kph, speed at collision 53kph. OMG Hamilton and his crazy emergency stop.

[noell35]

ash73 said:

Apparently this is what the FIA means by "not lifting off entirely", the HUD shows zero throttle and brakes applied after the apex:

https://streamable.com/phz5p

Looks to me like he brakes for the corner and then brakes again after being hit.
Also there must be some delay on that graphic. I think the FIA would have slightly more accurate data to work with.
Armchair expert Vs FIA

[HustleRussell]

ash73 said:

Apparently this is what the FIA means by "not lifting off entirely", the HUD shows zero throttle and brakes applied after the apex:

https://streamable.com/phz5p

ash73 said:

1g

[768]

noell35 said:

Also there must be some delay on that graphic.

There must. It could be milliseconds though, I wonder if it's encoded in the video stream before being sent from the car (i.e. should be minimal) or whether it's sent separately and stitched together subsequently.