F1 owners say UK paywall TV deal they have inherited is detr
Discussion
C70R said:
Ahonen said:
C70R said:
There's no such thing as 'free' TV in Germany. You pay a licence fee (similar cost to the UK) to own a TV, no matter which channel you watch.
In addition, the German market is an inherent oddity (compared with the rest of the developed world) in its TV network infrastructure. Subscription services are tiny over there because of the prevalence of 'free' (see above) cable services which were established long before the likes of Sky launched in the market. Thus, the potential audience for any subscription-based sport service is tiny (<10% of population have Sky), meaning that there's no commercial prospect of F1 leaving RTL completely.
Not really a sensible comparison with the UK scenario.
A sort of TV licence, you say? Like the UK then, where we pay a TV licence but still refer to stuff as free TV.In addition, the German market is an inherent oddity (compared with the rest of the developed world) in its TV network infrastructure. Subscription services are tiny over there because of the prevalence of 'free' (see above) cable services which were established long before the likes of Sky launched in the market. Thus, the potential audience for any subscription-based sport service is tiny (<10% of population have Sky), meaning that there's no commercial prospect of F1 leaving RTL completely.
Not really a sensible comparison with the UK scenario.
Said licence fee has always provided German consumers with a huge range of channels, all of which carry advertising. I was pointing out that there's no such thing as 'free' TV in Germany, and that the market is completely different to the UK.
thegreenhell said:
C70R said:
Ahonen said:
C70R said:
There's no such thing as 'free' TV in Germany. You pay a licence fee (similar cost to the UK) to own a TV, no matter which channel you watch.
In addition, the German market is an inherent oddity (compared with the rest of the developed world) in its TV network infrastructure. Subscription services are tiny over there because of the prevalence of 'free' (see above) cable services which were established long before the likes of Sky launched in the market. Thus, the potential audience for any subscription-based sport service is tiny (<10% of population have Sky), meaning that there's no commercial prospect of F1 leaving RTL completely.
Not really a sensible comparison with the UK scenario.
A sort of TV licence, you say? Like the UK then, where we pay a TV licence but still refer to stuff as free TV.In addition, the German market is an inherent oddity (compared with the rest of the developed world) in its TV network infrastructure. Subscription services are tiny over there because of the prevalence of 'free' (see above) cable services which were established long before the likes of Sky launched in the market. Thus, the potential audience for any subscription-based sport service is tiny (<10% of population have Sky), meaning that there's no commercial prospect of F1 leaving RTL completely.
Not really a sensible comparison with the UK scenario.
Said licence fee has always provided German consumers with a huge range of channels, all of which carry advertising. I was pointing out that there's no such thing as 'free' TV in Germany, and that the market is completely different to the UK.
Do try and keep up at the back.
ITV coverage with Jim Rosenthal as anchor man is a distant memory now. If I recall the BBC out bid ITV and the rest is history...
These days I listen to some of the races on the radio.
Interesting reading the responses of many on here, as it would appear that F1 is in the 'doldrums', compared to what it could be...
These days I listen to some of the races on the radio.
Interesting reading the responses of many on here, as it would appear that F1 is in the 'doldrums', compared to what it could be...
ash73 said:
Fair point, but those same people are watching adverts during the free to air coverage. Would be interesting to know how much they make from Sky F1 subscriptions versus Ch4 advertising.
There are no adverts during the Ch4 live free-to-air races. The frequency of advert breaks in the build-up and post-race is very similar to that on Sky's subscription coverage.I really enjoy C4's coverage and have others have said they do a really good highlights package so if you miss it live it's not too bad. Sky's grates a bit and I hate shouty Crofty. So glad it's C4 live this weekend.
Although it was great to see Jake, DC and Brundle all back together for the London show.
Although it was great to see Jake, DC and Brundle all back together for the London show.
C70R said:
Subscription services help big sports to thrive, and it's been proven time after time. I'm keen to see your examples of where it's killed any big sport in the past.
What concerns me, is can F1 be considered a similarly big sport?Football has thrived, but then it's a game that most people grow up with; it's played in schools, for the cost of a football anyone can participate in it, it can be played in parks, back gardens, etc. Similarly rugby, tennis etc are all relatively accessible sports.
With F1 and motorsport generally, I just don't see that people are going to have any exposure to it worth speaking of if it ends up behind PPV only unless they happen to live within a stone's throw of a venue. How many current F1 fans became so through a process of osmosis, watching it on TV growing up because there wasn't much else to do on a Sunday, gradually becoming becoming drawn in by its nuances and peculiarities.
The fewer people that grow up with it, the fewer are likely to become fans let alone ones prepared to pay money to watch; in turn that then means even fewer growing up with any kind of exposure to it.
Looking at the viewing figures for golf, in 2015 viewing figures for the first day of the Open on the BBC were 1.5 million, in 2016 on Sky they fell by nearly 80%.
Similarly, viewing figures for cricket would appear to be on a downward trend. Average viewers for the Ashes in 2005 on Ch4 were 2.4m. In 2015 the final day saw figures under half a million. A Sport England survey between October 2006 and October 2007 found 380,000 people aged 16 or over played cricket at least once a month. By 2015 that figure had fallen to 259,200.
On top of this, you then have changing viewing habits and tastes. Fewer people watching TV generally, less interest in cars amongst younger people, etc.
Contrast this with the surge of interest in niche sports following the 2012 Olympics thanks to TV coverage.
I've been watching F1 for as long as I can remember thanks to dad's interest in it. I can still remember being at Castle Combe, stopping to watch the '86 Australian grand prix there as if it were yesterday. Had it not been for TV coverage and dad's enthusiasm of the sport I'm not sure what would have drawn me to it.
Whilst it may "only" be X amount per month or year to watch, F1 is going to be in competition with many many other things for that X from people's pockets and I would suggest that it's going to lose out more often than not.
It's a very fair point.
Football anyone can enter the sport for what £5 ball plus £3 for 4 orange cones for goals job done.
Rugby similar entry cost too but the H to kick practice you cannot do anywhere but a pitch.
Golf it's got a lot cheaper to play now BUT so many took it up in the boom years but then fell away when the pinch started.
Motorsports literally unachieveable to 99% of the population. It is thus entertainment over a hobby to everyone. If it's boring people will turn off that's the key. You have drivers and then teams who do you really support? You can do both but the loyalty is nothing like Rugby and footie.
Motorsport is a middle class+ Sport whereas Football (& boxing) are two sports literally anyone can become world champ. Costs to entry very low training anywhere you have open space payout is massive. Legends are made.
Football anyone can enter the sport for what £5 ball plus £3 for 4 orange cones for goals job done.
Rugby similar entry cost too but the H to kick practice you cannot do anywhere but a pitch.
Golf it's got a lot cheaper to play now BUT so many took it up in the boom years but then fell away when the pinch started.
Motorsports literally unachieveable to 99% of the population. It is thus entertainment over a hobby to everyone. If it's boring people will turn off that's the key. You have drivers and then teams who do you really support? You can do both but the loyalty is nothing like Rugby and footie.
Motorsport is a middle class+ Sport whereas Football (& boxing) are two sports literally anyone can become world champ. Costs to entry very low training anywhere you have open space payout is massive. Legends are made.
jagnet said:
What concerns me, is can F1 be considered a similarly big sport?
Football has thrived, but then it's a game that most people grow up with; it's played in schools, for the cost of a football anyone can participate in it, it can be played in parks, back gardens, etc. Similarly rugby, tennis etc are all relatively accessible sports.
With F1 and motorsport generally, I just don't see that people are going to have any exposure to it worth speaking of if it ends up behind PPV only unless they happen to live within a stone's throw of a venue. How many current F1 fans became so through a process of osmosis, watching it on TV growing up because there wasn't much else to do on a Sunday, gradually becoming becoming drawn in by its nuances and peculiarities.
The fewer people that grow up with it, the fewer are likely to become fans let alone ones prepared to pay money to watch; in turn that then means even fewer growing up with any kind of exposure to it.
Looking at the viewing figures for golf, in 2015 viewing figures for the first day of the Open on the BBC were 1.5 million, in 2016 on Sky they fell by nearly 80%.
Similarly, viewing figures for cricket would appear to be on a downward trend. Average viewers for the Ashes in 2005 on Ch4 were 2.4m. In 2015 the final day saw figures under half a million. A Sport England survey between October 2006 and October 2007 found 380,000 people aged 16 or over played cricket at least once a month. By 2015 that figure had fallen to 259,200.
On top of this, you then have changing viewing habits and tastes. Fewer people watching TV generally, less interest in cars amongst younger people, etc.
Contrast this with the surge of interest in niche sports following the 2012 Olympics thanks to TV coverage.
I've been watching F1 for as long as I can remember thanks to dad's interest in it. I can still remember being at Castle Combe, stopping to watch the '86 Australian grand prix there as if it were yesterday. Had it not been for TV coverage and dad's enthusiasm of the sport I'm not sure what would have drawn me to it.
Whilst it may "only" be X amount per month or year to watch, F1 is going to be in competition with many many other things for that X from people's pockets and I would suggest that it's going to lose out more often than not.
Thanks for that. It paints a worrying picture.Football has thrived, but then it's a game that most people grow up with; it's played in schools, for the cost of a football anyone can participate in it, it can be played in parks, back gardens, etc. Similarly rugby, tennis etc are all relatively accessible sports.
With F1 and motorsport generally, I just don't see that people are going to have any exposure to it worth speaking of if it ends up behind PPV only unless they happen to live within a stone's throw of a venue. How many current F1 fans became so through a process of osmosis, watching it on TV growing up because there wasn't much else to do on a Sunday, gradually becoming becoming drawn in by its nuances and peculiarities.
The fewer people that grow up with it, the fewer are likely to become fans let alone ones prepared to pay money to watch; in turn that then means even fewer growing up with any kind of exposure to it.
Looking at the viewing figures for golf, in 2015 viewing figures for the first day of the Open on the BBC were 1.5 million, in 2016 on Sky they fell by nearly 80%.
Similarly, viewing figures for cricket would appear to be on a downward trend. Average viewers for the Ashes in 2005 on Ch4 were 2.4m. In 2015 the final day saw figures under half a million. A Sport England survey between October 2006 and October 2007 found 380,000 people aged 16 or over played cricket at least once a month. By 2015 that figure had fallen to 259,200.
On top of this, you then have changing viewing habits and tastes. Fewer people watching TV generally, less interest in cars amongst younger people, etc.
Contrast this with the surge of interest in niche sports following the 2012 Olympics thanks to TV coverage.
I've been watching F1 for as long as I can remember thanks to dad's interest in it. I can still remember being at Castle Combe, stopping to watch the '86 Australian grand prix there as if it were yesterday. Had it not been for TV coverage and dad's enthusiasm of the sport I'm not sure what would have drawn me to it.
Whilst it may "only" be X amount per month or year to watch, F1 is going to be in competition with many many other things for that X from people's pockets and I would suggest that it's going to lose out more often than not.
'My' sport is rugby. My club finds that we get most of our younger recruits and visitors via free-to-air TV coverage. There's a boom for the 6N. the RWC and such. There was degree of concern when the Premiership went PPV, and on BT! The fears have largely been groundless, the theory being that very few watched the TV coverage of non-internationals, but we don't know.
If F1 suddenly becomes something of little interest except for the nerds in the west then it will probably fall out of fashion in other countries as well. The USA won't miss it. China won't notice it's gone, and some of the other 'come lately' countries don't know it's there.
If it returns to its niche sport slot then from the point of view of a nerd, I wouldn't be that bothered. That is as long as it is returned to FTA.
F1 is not big enough to thrive on subscription in this country.
In any job I've ever had, football is a standard topic of conversation; your team a target for ribbing, reminiscing about specific incidents in World Cups going back decades etc.
Raise F1 and you're told it's boring, just a load of cars going round a track, it's all down to the car etc. There may be the odd F1 fan, but it's clear to me that most find it boring. Occasionally, a non-fan wangles their way into some hospitality, then comes in on Monday and talks about anything but the racing.
Not as bad a reaction as I get when I mention pro cycling, but bad enough to convince me that F1 is not the massive sport it thinks it is.
In any job I've ever had, football is a standard topic of conversation; your team a target for ribbing, reminiscing about specific incidents in World Cups going back decades etc.
Raise F1 and you're told it's boring, just a load of cars going round a track, it's all down to the car etc. There may be the odd F1 fan, but it's clear to me that most find it boring. Occasionally, a non-fan wangles their way into some hospitality, then comes in on Monday and talks about anything but the racing.
Not as bad a reaction as I get when I mention pro cycling, but bad enough to convince me that F1 is not the massive sport it thinks it is.
HardtopManual said:
F1 is not big enough to thrive on subscription in this country.
In any job I've ever had, football is a standard topic of conversation; your team a target for ribbing, reminiscing about specific incidents in World Cups going back decades etc.
Raise F1 and you're told it's boring, just a load of cars going round a track, it's all down to the car etc. There may be the odd F1 fan, but it's clear to me that most find it boring. Occasionally, a non-fan wangles their way into some hospitality, then comes in on Monday and talks about anything but the racing.
Not as bad a reaction as I get when I mention pro cycling, but bad enough to convince me that F1 is not the massive sport it thinks it is.
Plus it's not as appealing to youngsters with loads of more exciting free shorter forms of sport available on their iPads or whatever.In any job I've ever had, football is a standard topic of conversation; your team a target for ribbing, reminiscing about specific incidents in World Cups going back decades etc.
Raise F1 and you're told it's boring, just a load of cars going round a track, it's all down to the car etc. There may be the odd F1 fan, but it's clear to me that most find it boring. Occasionally, a non-fan wangles their way into some hospitality, then comes in on Monday and talks about anything but the racing.
Not as bad a reaction as I get when I mention pro cycling, but bad enough to convince me that F1 is not the massive sport it thinks it is.
I watched F1 as a kid because there wasn't any internet and only a couple of tv channels. My kids have no interest in watching 2.5 hours of a race with very little action compared to what's available on YouTube or netflix or whatever.
I can't imagine I would have got into F1 as a kid if I'd had the internet and all the wonders that brings. Look at the Americans, they're like children with their short attention span, they don't like F1 or test cricket. It's too long and not enough action.
Sports like rugby and cricket survive because children can actually play them. They can't easily join an F1 club and go motor racing.
F1 needs to make some huge changes if it wants to survive long term, the pay per view model is just one of many factors that need addressing.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 15th July 10:05
Welshbeef said:
What about. 30 min sprint F1 races? No pit stops unless you want them.
Unlimited power unlimited development bonkers loud noise big accidents loads of passing and dancing girls before and after.
Yeah like the introduction of limited overs and T20 cricket, F1 desperately needs some short forms of the sport mixed in with the longer races. Unlimited power unlimited development bonkers loud noise big accidents loads of passing and dancing girls before and after.
Welshbeef said:
El stovey said:
Yeah like the introduction of limited overs and T20 cricket, F1 desperately needs some short forms of the sport mixed in with the longer races.
Golf too is going very short now - isn't the plan for a 6 hole game with 30sexonds to play each shot. Speed golf
Subscription TV is very much the norm in North America though. Apart from a couple of basic channels that can be received for free through an aerial, everything is on subscription TV. It's a cultural thing where nothing is free, so they're used to having to pay for everything all the time, from TV to healthcare.
Indycar and Nascar are also almost completely unknown to most people outside of their home market, despite being available on subscription TV elsewhere. This year's Indy 500 will have been many people's first view of Indycar, and only then because of a single driver they know from F1.
Indycar and Nascar are also almost completely unknown to most people outside of their home market, despite being available on subscription TV elsewhere. This year's Indy 500 will have been many people's first view of Indycar, and only then because of a single driver they know from F1.
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