The Official 2018 F1 Silly Season *Contains Speculation*
Discussion
Dermot O'Logical said:
I understand what you're trying to say, and in my view the Williams team of recent years is more and more reminiscent of Tyrrell in their declining years. A good deal was preferable to a good driver.
I can't, for example, see Lance Stroll getting a seat in a Mercedes or Ferrari.
Exactly.I can't, for example, see Lance Stroll getting a seat in a Mercedes or Ferrari.
If Williams used their brains then having a driver who could get them good results week in week out would provide MORE money in the long run.
But that's common sense.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Dermot O'Logical said:
I understand what you're trying to say, and in my view the Williams team of recent years is more and more reminiscent of Tyrrell in their declining years. A good deal was preferable to a good driver.
I can't, for example, see Lance Stroll getting a seat in a Mercedes or Ferrari.
Exactly.I can't, for example, see Lance Stroll getting a seat in a Mercedes or Ferrari.
If Williams used their brains then having a driver who could get them good results week in week out would provide MORE money in the long run.
But that's common sense.
I think Stroll and Sirotkin pairing is pretty desperate.
2016, they had Bottas and Massa. Effectively they then surrendered Bottas for cash and acquired Stoll’s cash who could then be mentored by Massa, plus Massa met certain Martini marketing necessities.
I think it was time to replace Massa with someone who could maybe score more points while mentoring Stroll. So now they appoint a second F1 rookie. At least Stroll senior will be able to quickly judge if he is blowing cash on his son’s F1 career.
Paddy Lowe needs to pull a good chassis design out of the hat for 2018, that can easily be exploited by a rookie. They are going to be swamped by McLaren and Renault finally finding form next year. If Honda finally get their act together, then TR could be a threat and in racecraft I think the Haas guys will have their measure.
This pairing has all the qualities of the sort that Catetham and Manor used to put together out of desperate necessity, but then they were only racing $50million chassis with small team support.
Williams might as well hang out their “For Sale” sign at a price less than Force India want.
2016, they had Bottas and Massa. Effectively they then surrendered Bottas for cash and acquired Stoll’s cash who could then be mentored by Massa, plus Massa met certain Martini marketing necessities.
I think it was time to replace Massa with someone who could maybe score more points while mentoring Stroll. So now they appoint a second F1 rookie. At least Stroll senior will be able to quickly judge if he is blowing cash on his son’s F1 career.
Paddy Lowe needs to pull a good chassis design out of the hat for 2018, that can easily be exploited by a rookie. They are going to be swamped by McLaren and Renault finally finding form next year. If Honda finally get their act together, then TR could be a threat and in racecraft I think the Haas guys will have their measure.
This pairing has all the qualities of the sort that Catetham and Manor used to put together out of desperate necessity, but then they were only racing $50million chassis with small team support.
Williams might as well hang out their “For Sale” sign at a price less than Force India want.
You do have to ask questions about Williams management in recent years, but also have some sympathy. Mercedes wanted Bottas and Bottas wanted Mercedes. Williams’ only opportunity in all this was to maximise the financial benefit of letting him go. Fine. Signing Stroll for three years for the money looked weak but we don’t know how bad their financial situation was. It was a lot of money, and Stroll might yet prove not to be a dead loss on the circuit either (he has had at least one fleeting moment of brilliance). At least they had managed to get Massa back. Understandably Williams were courting other drivers- teams are talking to other drivers all the time. There’s no doubt Massa can be bettered by the right driver. I thought Massa was shooting himself in the foot when he started issuing ultimatums about 2018 and trying to force Williams’ hand. Rather it looks like Williams’ indecisiveness has cost them their point scoring driver and left them floundering, for want of a better word. I suspect it was a dead cat bounce but Massa even managed to look pretty handy at times during 2017.
Kubica was always a risk and it appears to have backfired. Options other than Kubica exist but none are stellar. With that being the case what are Williams to do but pick the driver who is the fastest of those they have personally tested and who brings the most money?
Kubica was always a risk and it appears to have backfired. Options other than Kubica exist but none are stellar. With that being the case what are Williams to do but pick the driver who is the fastest of those they have personally tested and who brings the most money?
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Exactly.
If Williams used their brains then having a driver who could get them good results week in week out would provide MORE money in the long run.
But that's common sense.
I don't think it's that simple. Renault gained $6.5m as a result of climbing one place in the constructors standings - that's less than a funded driver would bring to the team, and a huge amount less than Stroll (reportedly) provides. To make the numbers stack they would need a driver who will put them one or two places higher than they otherwise would be, or +3 places if they signed an established star commanding $5-10m per year salary.If Williams used their brains then having a driver who could get them good results week in week out would provide MORE money in the long run.
But that's common sense.
For a midfield team the ultimate driver is probably Sergio Perez, who brings money but is also a very good driver in his own right, Williams will be hoping that Stroll and Sirotkin can do the same for them.
HustleRussell said:
. I suspect it was a dead cat bounce but Massa even managed to look pretty handy at times during 2017.
Very few times though unfortunately, there were quite a few weekends where he just didn't turn up , the result of keeping a driver for the team rather than the drivers convenience I fear. Do we really think that its taken since the 28th of November for Williams to process the data?
HighwayStar said:
Realistically... who? Who they could get as opposed to say just get xxxx. Who was free and available to bring good results week in week out? Straight question, not trying to stir things up...
Robert Kubica.He was considered a future World Champion before his accident and I very much doubt he has lost any of his talent.
Yes he has the injury but the pure skills will still be there.
liner33 said:
Very few times though unfortunately, there were quite a few weekends where he just didn't turn up , the result of keeping a driver for the team rather than the drivers convenience I fear.
That wasn't their (Paddy Lowes) analysis."This was one of the more impressive Felipe Massa seasons in his four-year stint with Williams, having postponed a short-lived retirement to replace Mercedes-bound Valtteri Bottas. Massa certainly left a strong impression on new technical chief Paddy Lowe.
“I’ve only really observed him from a distance, but it’s been a real pleasure to work with him,” says Lowe. “Firstly, he’s always happy in his work - always cheerful, always enthusiastic. Then, in the car, completely dependable.
“There are a lot of drivers who have bad days and then you don’t know where you are. In our case, we needed that reference, [or] we’d have been a bit lost, so he’s been great for the team and a great support to Lance by being so consistent, and also literally helping Lance - he’s given him quite a lot of coaching, a lot of important advice around techniques for different things, whether it’s warming tyres or tactics.”
Vaud said:
That wasn't their (Paddy Lowes) analysis.
"This was one of the more impressive Felipe Massa seasons in his four-year stint with Williams, having postponed a short-lived retirement to replace Mercedes-bound Valtteri Bottas. Massa certainly left a strong impression on new technical chief Paddy Lowe.
“I’ve only really observed him from a distance, but it’s been a real pleasure to work with him,” says Lowe. “Firstly, he’s always happy in his work - always cheerful, always enthusiastic. Then, in the car, completely dependable.
“There are a lot of drivers who have bad days and then you don’t know where you are. In our case, we needed that reference, [or] we’d have been a bit lost, so he’s been great for the team and a great support to Lance by being so consistent, and also literally helping Lance - he’s given him quite a lot of coaching, a lot of important advice around techniques for different things, whether it’s warming tyres or tactics.”
He is hardly going to slate him though is he ? He was fortunate to outscore LS yet in the Brazil race we saw flashes of the old Felipe which I missed and wanted to see more of "This was one of the more impressive Felipe Massa seasons in his four-year stint with Williams, having postponed a short-lived retirement to replace Mercedes-bound Valtteri Bottas. Massa certainly left a strong impression on new technical chief Paddy Lowe.
“I’ve only really observed him from a distance, but it’s been a real pleasure to work with him,” says Lowe. “Firstly, he’s always happy in his work - always cheerful, always enthusiastic. Then, in the car, completely dependable.
“There are a lot of drivers who have bad days and then you don’t know where you are. In our case, we needed that reference, [or] we’d have been a bit lost, so he’s been great for the team and a great support to Lance by being so consistent, and also literally helping Lance - he’s given him quite a lot of coaching, a lot of important advice around techniques for different things, whether it’s warming tyres or tactics.”
liner33 said:
He is hardly going to slate him though is he ? He was fortunate to outscore LS yet in the Brazil race we saw flashes of the old Felipe which I missed and wanted to see more of
True, but he could have been more neutral. It was by all accounts a very fickle car this year.liner33 said:
He is hardly going to slate him though is he ? He was fortunate to outscore LS yet in the Brazil race we saw flashes of the old Felipe which I missed and wanted to see more of
Massa was certainly not ‘fortunate to outscore LS’, he was unfortunate to outscore LS so narrowly. Massa had done everything he needed to do to come second in Baku but instead DNF’d with a random rear suspension problem. He also couldn’t take part in Hungary because of illness.ELUSIVEJIM said:
If Massa had not had that terrible head injury he would have been a Word Champion.
Doubtful in the extreme. The only time in his career when he's been in a championship-capable car and wasn't subservient to his teammate was 2007 and 2008, and he won neither of those. Once he became Alonso's number 2 he was never going to win a championship, injury or not.ELUSIVEJIM said:
M3ax said:
IMO Massa is underrated. The records never show those that were almost world champs. Granted that he was not at his best in the wet but he delivered some great drives.
If Massa had not had that terrible head injury he would have been a Word Champion.HighwayStar said:
Nah... Massa was a good driver but couldn't sustain it over a season.
Are u2 forgetting he was a World Champion until Hamilton overtook Glock??He only finished one point behind him in 2008.
His injury was in 2009 where he was 12 points ahead of Kimi in the crap Ferrari.
If it had not been for the injury he would IMO have been a number 1 at Ferrari.
What drivers are out there at the moment that could be capable of being the driver Williams need for points scoring & Lance Stroll mentoring?
Kubica & Di Resta I would say no as there F1 experience isnt in the F1 hybrid era. Kyvat would be that logical option but not sure if he is good enough to be in F1.
Kubica & Di Resta I would say no as there F1 experience isnt in the F1 hybrid era. Kyvat would be that logical option but not sure if he is good enough to be in F1.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
His injury was in 2009 where he was 12 points ahead of Kimi in the crap Ferrari.
If it had not been for the injury he would IMO have been a number 1 at Ferrari.
Apart from the fact that Ferrari had already signed Alonso to lead the team by the time of his accident. Even if he was team number 1 and could beat Alonso in the same car, Ferrari haven't won a WDC since 2007. Do you really think that Massa could have achieved something in that car that Alonso couldn't?If it had not been for the injury he would IMO have been a number 1 at Ferrari.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
HighwayStar said:
Nah... Massa was a good driver but couldn't sustain it over a season.
Are u2 forgetting he was a World Champion until Hamilton overtook Glock??He only finished one point behind him in 2008.
His injury was in 2009 where he was 12 points ahead of Kimi in the crap Ferrari.
If it had not been for the injury he would IMO have been a number 1 at Ferrari.
This is why overall Williams. IMO, should've kept him on board for another season. If they produce a fundamentally better, more rounded car than in the previous eh, God knows how many years.... One that produced decent down force, fast and worked at most of the circuits not just the straights we'd probably see a bit more of the old Massa... With decent equipment I'm sure he could still do a good job and bag decent points.
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