Sebastian Vettel
Discussion
velocgee said:
Vettel banged tyres, which act as part of the suspension and therefore are able to take knocks (to a degree) hence why they are able to brush walls. So don't believe it was a dangerous as some are making out.
The tyres aren't the important bit, it's the carbon fibre suspension and steering that's attached to them. They're not designed to be loaded from that direction to that degree and are therefore susceptible to failures when they are.Either or both only avoided a DNF due to luck rather than anything else.
HardtopManual said:
RPastry said:
If that had happened in any other motorsport he would've been black flagged. Whether he deliberately rammed Hamilton or lost control of the vehicle due to road rage is irrelevant, his behaviour was inexcusable.
You see people get punted off without the perpetrator getting penalised regularly in everything from BTCC to Mighty Minis.
.
KevinCamaroSS said:
The difference between Vettel and Alonso as drivers is that Vettel needs a car to be 'just so' whereas Alonso can drive any type of car to it's limits (or above). SV's last year at Red Bull shows this perfectly.
I am sure if Alonso was in the Ferrari in 2017 he would be doing a better job than Vettel.Vettel is not the driver Alonso is. In fact I doubt anyone on the grid is when it comes to the full package.
Dr Z said:
Derek Smith said:
I think the likeable personality and the refusal to admit fault are two different things. One purpose of discipline, hopefully the main one, is to try to stop it happening again. The punishment reinforces it in the mind of the offender and to others it is a warning.
If someone who has committed a discipline offence refuses to accept that he has done wrong then there's every chance of it happening again. I don't think it is a matter of moral behaviour, more a part of the regulations.
I don't think the comparison between his behaviour in private and his behaviour in public is not relevant in this case.
<snip>
Apologies for butchering your comment. I suspect we would have a more conciliatory Vettel show up in Austria, as I believe that he knows he's messed up but scrambling to not admit fault immediately. Funnily enough, he lost it in Mexico after he thought Max was brake testing him too. If someone who has committed a discipline offence refuses to accept that he has done wrong then there's every chance of it happening again. I don't think it is a matter of moral behaviour, more a part of the regulations.
I don't think the comparison between his behaviour in private and his behaviour in public is not relevant in this case.
<snip>
He did get punished this time, the severity of which was proportionate for the offence, IMO--the Stewards generally do a thorough job and I have little to doubt their conclusions. However, digging it back up by Todt does not look good. He was penalised, he served the penalty and it had a detrimental effect on his race. Leave it.
Whether he comes clean in the press immediately or not is up to the individual. One may or may not tolerate that.
Derek Smith said:
Also, you seem to be suggesting that Vettel is a better driver than Alonso. This seems to go against received wisdom for the those in the pits, or at least that's what is reported.
Well, I don't remember saying that. If you were to put Alonso in the same car as Vettel, the championship standings might not look all that different--OK, Alonso might not have sideswipped his rival and lost a possible win but I think Vettel has been performing to a very high level this year. Given a car capable of wins you will struggle to seperate a Vettel from Alonso. The latter might edge it in a mid-tier or poor car, although being a great driver is a lot more than being able to drive cars quickly, as I'm sure you know.
It is arguable whether Vettel's punishment during the race was of the correct level of severity. But there is a bigger issue that has only emerged after the race was completed.i.e Vettel's attitude.
Vettel's attitude refusal to acknowledge he's done any thing wrong, particularly after the stewards have examined the facts and telemetry in detail, suggest he thinks he knows better and challenges their authority, This alone makes him a liability on the circuit.
Add to that Vettel's existing points on his license due to previous incidents and his words to Charlie and you see a man with no respect for anybody and a self justification to win at any cost. Dangerous combination.
He, and all, drivers whether on the road or track, but particularly on the track, need to understand that they are playing not only with their own lives but those of others. It's a fundamental requirement that all drivers follow the safety rules. I would have thought not hitting another vehicle deliberately would be one of the fundamentals.
Much as I doubt anything substantial will come of it I think Jean Todt and the FIA should review Vettel's behaviour and recation during and after the race in detail and at least make it 100% clear that challenging behaviours on the track by taking the matter into your own hands in "the heat of battle" is in no way acceptable and won't be tolerated. Neither will metaphorically sticking two fingers up at the officials.
Any championship standing should be irrelevant to the outcome. In fact perhaps precisely because those two drivers involved are so much in the limelight its an opportunity to make a point.
I suspect economics and "sport" will prevail over common sense.
I want to see a battle on track but not a bumpercar battle.
Dr Z said:
Derek Smith said:
Also, you seem to be suggesting that Vettel is a better driver than Alonso. This seems to go against received wisdom for the those in the pits, or at least that's what is reported.
Well, I don't remember saying that. If you were to put Alonso in the same car as Vettel, the championship standings might not look all that different--OK, Alonso might not have sideswipped his rival and lost a possible win but I think Vettel has been performing to a very high level this year. Given a car capable of wins you will struggle to seperate a Vettel from Alonso. The latter might edge it in a mid-tier or poor car, although being a great driver is a lot more than being able to drive cars quickly, as I'm sure you know.
Tyre Tread said:
I hesitate to disagree with either of you as, although I've followed F1 for over four decades I don't have the depth of knowledge you have. However...
It is arguable whether Vettel's punishment during the race was of the correct level of severity. But there is a bigger issue that has only emerged after the race was completed.i.e Vettel's attitude.
Vettel's attitude refusal to acknowledge he's done any thing wrong, particularly after the stewards have examined the facts and telemetry in detail, suggest he thinks he knows better and challenges their authority, This alone makes him a liability on the circuit.
Add to that Vettel's existing points on his license due to previous incidents and his words to Charlie and you see a man with no respect for anybody and a self justification to win at any cost. Dangerous combination.
He, and all, drivers whether on the road or track, but particularly on the track, need to understand that they are playing not only with their own lives but those of others. It's a fundamental requirement that all drivers follow the safety rules. I would have thought not hitting another vehicle deliberately would be one of the fundamentals.
Much as I doubt anything substantial will come of it I think Jean Todt and the FIA should review Vettel's behaviour and recation during and after the race in detail and at least make it 100% clear that challenging behaviours on the track by taking the matter into your own hands in "the heat of battle" is in no way acceptable and won't be tolerated. Neither will metaphorically sticking two fingers up at the officials.
Any championship standing should be irrelevant to the outcome. In fact perhaps precisely because those two drivers involved are so much in the limelight its an opportunity to make a point.
I suspect economics and "sport" will prevail over common sense.
I want to see a battle on track but not a bumpercar battle.
Please, please, please don’t run away with the idea that I know what I’m talking about with regards F1. I just watch and read. I’m a bit of a nerd, but I watch with other nerds and we disagree all the time. I post because I enjoy F1 not because I can spread knowledge.It is arguable whether Vettel's punishment during the race was of the correct level of severity. But there is a bigger issue that has only emerged after the race was completed.i.e Vettel's attitude.
Vettel's attitude refusal to acknowledge he's done any thing wrong, particularly after the stewards have examined the facts and telemetry in detail, suggest he thinks he knows better and challenges their authority, This alone makes him a liability on the circuit.
Add to that Vettel's existing points on his license due to previous incidents and his words to Charlie and you see a man with no respect for anybody and a self justification to win at any cost. Dangerous combination.
He, and all, drivers whether on the road or track, but particularly on the track, need to understand that they are playing not only with their own lives but those of others. It's a fundamental requirement that all drivers follow the safety rules. I would have thought not hitting another vehicle deliberately would be one of the fundamentals.
Much as I doubt anything substantial will come of it I think Jean Todt and the FIA should review Vettel's behaviour and recation during and after the race in detail and at least make it 100% clear that challenging behaviours on the track by taking the matter into your own hands in "the heat of battle" is in no way acceptable and won't be tolerated. Neither will metaphorically sticking two fingers up at the officials.
Any championship standing should be irrelevant to the outcome. In fact perhaps precisely because those two drivers involved are so much in the limelight its an opportunity to make a point.
I suspect economics and "sport" will prevail over common sense.
I want to see a battle on track but not a bumpercar battle.
I agree with your other point about the punishment should be for the refusal to acknowledge the authority of the regulator. I agree also that the WDC should not be a factor in decision of the punishment, but I hope they won’t do anything too draconian.
Tyre Tread said:
It is arguable whether Vettel's punishment during the race was of the correct level of severity. But there is a bigger issue that has only emerged after the race was completed.i.e Vettel's attitude.
Vettel's attitude refusal to acknowledge he's done any thing wrong, particularly after the stewards have examined the facts and telemetry in detail, suggest he thinks he knows better and challenges their authority, This alone makes him a liability on the circuit.
Add to that Vettel's existing points on his license due to previous incidents and his words to Charlie and you see a man with no respect for anybody and a self justification to win at any cost. Dangerous combination.
He, and all, drivers whether on the road or track, but particularly on the track, need to understand that they are playing not only with their own lives but those of others. It's a fundamental requirement that all drivers follow the safety rules. I would have thought not hitting another vehicle deliberately would be one of the fundamentals.
Much as I doubt anything substantial will come of it I think Jean Todt and the FIA should review Vettel's behaviour and recation during and after the race in detail and at least make it 100% clear that challenging behaviours on the track by taking the matter into your own hands in "the heat of battle" is in no way acceptable and won't be tolerated. Neither will metaphorically sticking two fingers up at the officials.
I have quoted the relevant parts and I agree with everything you say here. I have already posted this elsewhere, but will repeat;Vettel's attitude refusal to acknowledge he's done any thing wrong, particularly after the stewards have examined the facts and telemetry in detail, suggest he thinks he knows better and challenges their authority, This alone makes him a liability on the circuit.
Add to that Vettel's existing points on his license due to previous incidents and his words to Charlie and you see a man with no respect for anybody and a self justification to win at any cost. Dangerous combination.
He, and all, drivers whether on the road or track, but particularly on the track, need to understand that they are playing not only with their own lives but those of others. It's a fundamental requirement that all drivers follow the safety rules. I would have thought not hitting another vehicle deliberately would be one of the fundamentals.
Much as I doubt anything substantial will come of it I think Jean Todt and the FIA should review Vettel's behaviour and recation during and after the race in detail and at least make it 100% clear that challenging behaviours on the track by taking the matter into your own hands in "the heat of battle" is in no way acceptable and won't be tolerated. Neither will metaphorically sticking two fingers up at the officials.
From this overhead view, it looks to me, IMHO, that Sebastian Vettel shunted Lewis Hamilton into the back of his Mercedes. While this happened, Vettel is shouting over the radio his claim that he had been brake tested...
Sebastian Vettel Angry With Lewis Hamilton | Race | 2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M2PcFEqhYc#t=3sec...
So to add to your comments, IMHO, Sebastion Vettel is guilty of unfairly denouncing another driver for brake testing him, when that IMHO, was not the case.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2017/...
FIA will decide on Monday if they need to look at Vettel's actions further, announcement before Austria.
That'll just mean they say "yes, we will investigate" or not, so probably a date in Paris just after the British GP I reckon.
FIA will decide on Monday if they need to look at Vettel's actions further, announcement before Austria.
That'll just mean they say "yes, we will investigate" or not, so probably a date in Paris just after the British GP I reckon.
Crafty_ said:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2017/...
FIA will decide on Monday if they need to look at Vettel's actions further, announcement before Austria.
That'll just mean they say "yes, we will investigate" or not, so probably a date in Paris just after the British GP I reckon.
Yeah and then just give him 4 points on his licence and get away with it FIA will decide on Monday if they need to look at Vettel's actions further, announcement before Austria.
That'll just mean they say "yes, we will investigate" or not, so probably a date in Paris just after the British GP I reckon.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
I am sure if Alonso was in the Ferrari in 2017 he would be doing a better job than Vettel.
Vettel is not the driver Alonso is. In fact I doubt anyone on the grid is when it comes to the full package.
Aside from quali, I agree. Alonso, like Kimi has lost a fraction in quali in my opinion. Not much, just that little fraction.Vettel is not the driver Alonso is. In fact I doubt anyone on the grid is when it comes to the full package.
That said, I'd have Alonso in my team any day...
I've been a fan and seen vettel as a good quick driver for a long time, but behaving like that behind the safety car is inexcusable.
It doesn't even come under "rubbing is racing", if contact happened while the two of them were fighting for position then it would be more understandable, but even the btcc guys wouldn't try something like that!
Really should have been a race disqualification or a points penalty, until seeing that shambles and the attitude afterwards I would have been happier seeing seb getting the championship this year.
It doesn't even come under "rubbing is racing", if contact happened while the two of them were fighting for position then it would be more understandable, but even the btcc guys wouldn't try something like that!
Really should have been a race disqualification or a points penalty, until seeing that shambles and the attitude afterwards I would have been happier seeing seb getting the championship this year.
ash73 said:
The key question is whether someone should get a greater punishment if they fail to show remorse. Certainly happens in a court of law, but it can be manipulated by someone smart enough to switch on a charm offensive. I thought his attitude after the race was appalling.
The mitigating factors are we now know he was brake tested, and it was at walking pace, and if it hadn't been for Lewis' headrest the stop/go would have cost him a lot of points, but I think either his points from the race should be forfeit or he should get a grid penalty at the next race.
We know nothing of the sort. What we know is quite the opposite.The mitigating factors are we now know he was brake tested, and it was at walking pace, and if it hadn't been for Lewis' headrest the stop/go would have cost him a lot of points, but I think either his points from the race should be forfeit or he should get a grid penalty at the next race.
You really are blind to the facts aren't you.
You are Vettel AICMFPConfirms it for me
Ash is Vettel everyone else on the planet knows that Ham did NOT brake test Vet
Blind or what?
In fact should anyone that blind have a race licence?
I, like many here had warmed to Vettel (a little) recently but this behaviour is disgraceful
He is out of my good books now
Ash is Vettel everyone else on the planet knows that Ham did NOT brake test Vet
Blind or what?
In fact should anyone that blind have a race licence?
I, like many here had warmed to Vettel (a little) recently but this behaviour is disgraceful
He is out of my good books now
ash73 said:
The key question is whether someone should get a greater punishment if they fail to show remorse. Certainly happens in a court of law, but it can be manipulated by someone smart enough to switch on a charm offensive. I thought his attitude after the race was appalling.
The mitigating factors are we now know he was brake tested, and it was at walking pace, and if it hadn't been for Lewis' headrest the stop/go would have cost him a lot of points, but I think either his points from the race should be forfeit or he should get a grid penalty at the next race.
Eh?The mitigating factors are we now know he was brake tested, and it was at walking pace, and if it hadn't been for Lewis' headrest the stop/go would have cost him a lot of points, but I think either his points from the race should be forfeit or he should get a grid penalty at the next race.
Link please, to any evidence, anywhere.
What troubles me is why you would state that as fact.
ash73 said:
The key question is whether someone should get a greater punishment if they fail to show remorse. Certainly happens in a court of law, but it can be manipulated by someone smart enough to switch on a charm offensive. I thought his attitude after the race was appalling.
The mitigating factors are we now know he was brake tested, and it was at walking pace, and if it hadn't been for Lewis' headrest the stop/go would have cost him a lot of points, but I think either his points from the race should be forfeit or he should get a grid penalty at the next race.
The FIA have said that Hamilton did NOT apply the brakes. So either you have access to info that they don't, or are simply wrong...The mitigating factors are we now know he was brake tested, and it was at walking pace, and if it hadn't been for Lewis' headrest the stop/go would have cost him a lot of points, but I think either his points from the race should be forfeit or he should get a grid penalty at the next race.
ash73 said:
I posted the evidence on the other thread and I don't want to spoil this one with another argument, let's just agree to disagree. This thread is about the punishment for the subsequent road rage.
I really hope Seb comes out with an apology before it's taken out of his hands.
You'll forgive me if I take this a bit further, but why would an apology be required if the evidence supported your position?I really hope Seb comes out with an apology before it's taken out of his hands.
ash73 said:
tumble dryer said:
You'll forgive me if I take this a bit further, but why would an apology be required if the evidence supported your position?
Because it's no excuse for what Seb did afterwards, it's a mitigating factor but he still needs the book throwing at him, imo. I'm not suggesting Lewis broke the rules, it was just a bit cute to brake immediately after the apex and it caught Seb out.Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff