Sebastian Vettel
Discussion
kambites said:
Interesting that Vettel has now come out and said he never had any contract talks with Ferrari, he was just shown the door:
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/53271660
Seems pretty harsh if true, but maybe they felt there was no chance of getting him to accept a formal number-two slot (which is almost certainly true) and they desperately didn't want their two drivers fighting on track. Certainly gives him little incentive to play-ball this year. If, as he says, he wants to continue in 2021, he has every reason to try to prove that Ferrari made the wrong decision dropping him so I can't see him rolling over for LeClerc. Not that Ferrari look likely to be able to challenge at the front from what we've seen so far.
I think one of two things could happen at Ferrari this year. Either LeClerc is so much faster than Vettel that they never really come into contact, or they constantly crash into each other.
A big finger to the finger, that shows that they know the name of the game. I've not been a huge Ferrari fan, but after this I think I love them. https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/53271660
Seems pretty harsh if true, but maybe they felt there was no chance of getting him to accept a formal number-two slot (which is almost certainly true) and they desperately didn't want their two drivers fighting on track. Certainly gives him little incentive to play-ball this year. If, as he says, he wants to continue in 2021, he has every reason to try to prove that Ferrari made the wrong decision dropping him so I can't see him rolling over for LeClerc. Not that Ferrari look likely to be able to challenge at the front from what we've seen so far.
I think one of two things could happen at Ferrari this year. Either LeClerc is so much faster than Vettel that they never really come into contact, or they constantly crash into each other.
Edited by kambites on Friday 3rd July 08:07
I'm surprised that Vettel is surprised. The management has changed. Did he think he was going to be another Kimi? At least Kimi kept to the script and Vettel wanted Kimi as his team mate. I imagine that if asked about Vettel, Charles would have said - "Non, merci!"
The ones who renewed Kimi's contract year after year are gone. It's nice to see Ferrari being decisive and looking to the future. Even if Sainz isn't the right choice ultimately, then it is better than sticking with a has-been.
The ones who renewed Kimi's contract year after year are gone. It's nice to see Ferrari being decisive and looking to the future. Even if Sainz isn't the right choice ultimately, then it is better than sticking with a has-been.
Oooh now will we see Vettel in Merc next year because that would be fireworks.... Almost guarantee the Merc WC but what about the WDC.
And as others have said, will this make Vettel hungry this season to beat CLC - I suspect so, and I also suspect I know what would happen if Vettel was asked to let CLC past during a race this season....
And as others have said, will this make Vettel hungry this season to beat CLC - I suspect so, and I also suspect I know what would happen if Vettel was asked to let CLC past during a race this season....
Not surprised at all. Vettel had a car capable of winning the championship twice and failed. Last year was the last straw with him crashing into his team mate and making far too many mistakes.
What is surprising is the initial spin that it was Vettel that walked, no doubt that pissed off Ferrari and they were going to correct that today.
What is surprising is the initial spin that it was Vettel that walked, no doubt that pissed off Ferrari and they were going to correct that today.
jsf said:
Not surprised at all. Vettel had a car capable of winning the championship twice and failed.
That's true but a bit unfair - he had a car capable of winning the championship, but he never had a team capable of it. Throughout those seasons Ferrari threw away roughly as many points through mismanagement as Vettel did through poor driving. kambites said:
That's true but a bit unfair - he had a car capable of winning the championship, but he never had a team capable of it. Throughout those seasons Ferrari threw away roughly as many points through mismanagement as Vettel did through poor driving.
Vettel threw away points as you say, and continued to do so throughout last season too. Rectify that by getting rid of him. Job done.Ferrari threw away points as you say, rectify that by reorganising the team. Job done.
Just because one part of the team failed, that doesn't give a free lunch to the other part.
Even with the teams errors, Vettel still had the opportunity to win at least one World Championship, he was paid well to do so, he failed and did not look like succeeding either with his poor control over his emotions when under pressure. I would have dumped him sooner, he was clearly not up to the job and when he lost his mind ramming Hamilton that would have been my turning point if i were running the team.
jsf said:
Vettel threw away points as you say, and continued to do so throughout last season too. Rectify that by getting rid of him. Job done.
Ferrari threw away points as you say, rectify that by reorganising the team. Job done.
Just because one part of the team failed, that doesn't give a free lunch to the other part.
Even with the teams errors, Vettel still had the opportunity to win at least one World Championship, he was paid well to do so, he failed and did not look like succeeding either with his poor control over his emotions when under pressure. I would have dumped him sooner, he was clearly not up to the job and when he lost his mind ramming Hamilton that would have been my turning point if i were running the team.
They've been trying to rectify that since 2007 but cannot seem to do anything about it to my absolute frustrationFerrari threw away points as you say, rectify that by reorganising the team. Job done.
Just because one part of the team failed, that doesn't give a free lunch to the other part.
Even with the teams errors, Vettel still had the opportunity to win at least one World Championship, he was paid well to do so, he failed and did not look like succeeding either with his poor control over his emotions when under pressure. I would have dumped him sooner, he was clearly not up to the job and when he lost his mind ramming Hamilton that would have been my turning point if i were running the team.
jsf said:
kambites said:
That's true but a bit unfair - he had a car capable of winning the championship, but he never had a team capable of it. Throughout those seasons Ferrari threw away roughly as many points through mismanagement as Vettel did through poor driving.
Vettel threw away points as you say, and continued to do so throughout last season too. Rectify that by getting rid of him. Job done.Ferrari threw away points as you say, rectify that by reorganising the team. Job done.
Just because one part of the team failed, that doesn't give a free lunch to the other part.
Even with the teams errors, Vettel still had the opportunity to win at least one World Championship, he was paid well to do so, he failed and did not look like succeeding either with his poor control over his emotions when under pressure. I would have dumped him sooner, he was clearly not up to the job and when he lost his mind ramming Hamilton that would have been my turning point if i were running the team.
I agree with both points. Vettel has been too error prone to justify his pay grade. He has the ability to win a tough fought championship, but he also has the ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory! That's a tough set of odds to keep placing a significant amount of money on.
On the other hand... Even if he was stable and consistent (if he was Lewis..) Ferrari themselves have proven capable of throwing away potential good results in endless ways.
In conclusion I don't think vettel is a great hope for a title winning drive. I also don't think Ferrari can be trusted to deliver that opportunity in the first place. I expect this season will demonstrate that the Ferrari Vs Mercedes landscape has changed significantly, and that Ferrari are not in the running anymore - at least not this year. They're obviously still a world class team but they just seem to keep missing the target one way or another. Resorting to cheating also didn't work.
On the other hand... Even if he was stable and consistent (if he was Lewis..) Ferrari themselves have proven capable of throwing away potential good results in endless ways.
In conclusion I don't think vettel is a great hope for a title winning drive. I also don't think Ferrari can be trusted to deliver that opportunity in the first place. I expect this season will demonstrate that the Ferrari Vs Mercedes landscape has changed significantly, and that Ferrari are not in the running anymore - at least not this year. They're obviously still a world class team but they just seem to keep missing the target one way or another. Resorting to cheating also didn't work.
TheDeuce said:
I haven't - is that a recommendation?
How does his idea of perfection compare to Newey? Is it all still as relevant today?
All genuine questions, I love these sort of books - especially if it's about the journey of design.
Yes you should buy it, it gives a great insight into why Italian teams rarely win in the modern era. It's also a very good book if you have an interest in racing and engineering in general.How does his idea of perfection compare to Newey? Is it all still as relevant today?
All genuine questions, I love these sort of books - especially if it's about the journey of design.
Barnard was better at lateral thinking that Newey IMHO, the list of innovations he developed is very long, that cost him some wins as he was always pushing the next idea which cost reliability. He wasn't as good at playing the politics game, a brilliant engineer. He also suffered from others taking credit for his work, Jim Hall comes across as a proper snake.
jsf said:
Yes you should buy it, it gives a great insight into why Italian teams rarely win in the modern era. It's also a very good book if you have an interest in racing and engineering in general.
Barnard was better at lateral thinking that Newey IMHO, the list of innovations he developed is very long, that cost him some wins as he was always pushing the next idea which cost reliability. He wasn't as good at playing the politics game, a brilliant engineer. He also suffered from others taking credit for his work, Jim Hall comes across as a proper snake.
Does it also contain any insights into why German drivers are so mentally unstable? If it does I'll buy 5 copies.Barnard was better at lateral thinking that Newey IMHO, the list of innovations he developed is very long, that cost him some wins as he was always pushing the next idea which cost reliability. He wasn't as good at playing the politics game, a brilliant engineer. He also suffered from others taking credit for his work, Jim Hall comes across as a proper snake.
jsf said:
Yes you should buy it, it gives a great insight into why Italian teams rarely win in the modern era. It's also a very good book if you have an interest in racing and engineering in general.
Barnard was better at lateral thinking that Newey IMHO, the list of innovations he developed is very long, that cost him some wins as he was always pushing the next idea which cost reliability. He wasn't as good at playing the politics game, a brilliant engineer. He also suffered from others taking credit for his work, Jim Hall comes across as a proper snake.
Sold.Barnard was better at lateral thinking that Newey IMHO, the list of innovations he developed is very long, that cost him some wins as he was always pushing the next idea which cost reliability. He wasn't as good at playing the politics game, a brilliant engineer. He also suffered from others taking credit for his work, Jim Hall comes across as a proper snake.
I'm a lateral thinker and I'd say it's done me well, especially as an engineer. But my god it makes people around me think I've lost the plot half the time! I'll read it for purposes of shared sympathy if nothing else
Just to double check, it's "The Perfect Car"? I have the page open on Amazon.
t crazy, no holds barred Webber in a area multi 21 mental?TheDeuce said:
Sold.
I'm a lateral thinker and I'd say it's done me well, especially as an engineer. But my god it makes people around me think I've lost the plot half the time! I'll read it for purposes of shared sympathy if nothing else
Just to double check, it's "The Perfect Car"? I have the page open on Amazon.
Yes, it's his Biography by Nick SkeensI'm a lateral thinker and I'd say it's done me well, especially as an engineer. But my god it makes people around me think I've lost the plot half the time! I'll read it for purposes of shared sympathy if nothing else
Just to double check, it's "The Perfect Car"? I have the page open on Amazon.
jsf said:
TheDeuce said:
Sold.
I'm a lateral thinker and I'd say it's done me well, especially as an engineer. But my god it makes people around me think I've lost the plot half the time! I'll read it for purposes of shared sympathy if nothing else
Just to double check, it's "The Perfect Car"? I have the page open on Amazon.
Yes, it's his Biography by Nick SkeensI'm a lateral thinker and I'd say it's done me well, especially as an engineer. But my god it makes people around me think I've lost the plot half the time! I'll read it for purposes of shared sympathy if nothing else
Just to double check, it's "The Perfect Car"? I have the page open on Amazon.
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