Sebastian Vettel
Discussion
KevinCamaroSS said:
Durzel said:
I would even go further and say that at least 2 of Vettel's WDCs were actually close, so there was pressure there, the likes of which doesn't seem to really exist now.
Which actually proves how average Vettel really is. With all the advantages he had in those years it should have been easy. He had no competition from his team-mate and a car that should have been about 1 second a lap faster than any other car.If someone states that Vettel had it easy in 2010-13 because he cruised the championships then you would find fault with his wins.
Now someone states actually 2 of those titles were harder fought you still find fault.
Hard to debate with people who can't listen.
KevinCamaroSS said:
Which actually proves how average Vettel really is. With all the advantages he had in those years it should have been easy. He had no competition from his team-mate and a car that should have been about 1 second a lap faster than any other car.
Says who? Only way I can see anyone making that assessment is if they've already concluded that the driver is, relatively speaking, a bit s
t.I think Lewis's 2007 and 2008 seasons were his most impressive. Nearly winning the title in your maiden season versus three tier 1 drivers (at the time) with 'identical' cars was an amazing achievement. The five championships he has won since 2008, have in my (worthless) opinion, been a relative walk in the park (especially post Rosberg's retirement); Vettel generally had to work harder for his four championships 2010-2013, than Lewis has had to post 2014. Yes, there were races in 2017-18 where the Ferrari car was quicker, but averaged across the season they were out-developed by Mercedes who had the better car and team. No doubt, Lewis is more complete (and a higher skilled driver) than Vettel, but the way Vettel is mocked for his four world championships is unfair.
There was a period where Lewis was getting tangled up with Massa quite often, appears something similar is beginning with Albon!
There was a period where Lewis was getting tangled up with Massa quite often, appears something similar is beginning with Albon!
neverlifted said:
I think Lewis's 2007 and 2008 seasons were his most impressive. Nearly winning the title in your maiden season versus three tier 1 drivers (at the time) with 'identical' cars was an amazing achievement. The five championships he has won since 2008, have in my (worthless) opinion, been a relative walk in the park (especially post Rosberg's retirement); Vettel generally had to work harder for his four championships 2010-2013, than Lewis has had to post 2014. Yes, there were races in 2017-18 where the Ferrari car was quicker, but averaged across the season they were out-developed by Mercedes who had the better car and team. No doubt, Lewis is more complete (and a higher skilled driver) than Vettel, but the way Vettel is mocked for his four world championships is unfair.
There was a period where Lewis was getting tangled up with Massa quite often, appears something similar is beginning with Albon!
No WDC is ever easy, but the RB6/7/8 cars all dominated. I think the key to Vettel's 4 championships is that Webber was never quite a match for him, and he was Marco's favourite- Webber was never going to win.There was a period where Lewis was getting tangled up with Massa quite often, appears something similar is beginning with Albon!
Looks like the seat swapping caused by vettel, has lead to alonso coming back!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53325412
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53325412
What I am saying is that the RBR car of that era was so far ahead of the competition (a bit like Mercedes now) that there should have been no competition to Vettel, given that Webber was not ever going to be allowed to win. Nobody is arguing that the competition recently has only been between Hamilton and his team-mate. Same in the RBR era. The fact that other teams actually managed to get close is my whole point. Vettel's performances since arriving at Ferrari also rather back up my statement.
Munter said:
Looks like the seat swapping caused by vettel, has lead to alonso coming back!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53325412
I do hope not.https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53325412
Munter said:
Looks like the seat swapping caused by vettel, has lead to alonso coming back!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53325412
If accurate that's arguably the most likely seat for Vettel to take gone. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53325412
KevinCamaroSS said:
What I am saying is that the RBR car of that era was so far ahead of the competition (a bit like Mercedes now) that there should have been no competition to Vettel, given that Webber was not ever going to be allowed to win. Nobody is arguing that the competition recently has only been between Hamilton and his team-mate. Same in the RBR era. The fact that other teams actually managed to get close is my whole point. Vettel's performances since arriving at Ferrari also rather back up my statement.
Now? Mercedes had no competition until the last couple of years, and look like they may have gone back to being unassailable (barring driver error / failures) again... although I will temper that hyperbole somewhat by saying that we're only one race in 
There is a lot of bias on this thread against Vettel and/or towards Hamilton in my humble opinion. As was said earlier the cognitive dissonance in suggesting that Vettel both had it easy in 2010-2013 but also barely won is quite something, and betrays far more about one's emotional feelings towards the man than it being an honest appraisal, imo.
Durzel said:
There is a lot of bias on this thread against Vettel and/or towards Hamilton in my humble opinion. As was said earlier the cognitive dissonance in suggesting that Vettel both had it easy in 2010-2013 but also barely won is quite something, and betrays far more about one's emotional feelings towards the man than it being an honest appraisal, imo.
I think Vettel was superb in the blown-diffuser car, he clicked with it and was probably as fast as anyone on earth could have been at that time.However, I think we have now repeatedly seen beyond any reasonable doubt that Hamilton is a far, far better racer.
Edited by paulguitar on Tuesday 7th July 16:24
Is it possible that the manner of Vettel's wins is part of the reason that everyone thinks he had it easy? Recollection is a fragile thing but I recall that his preferred technique was to get pole & then just drive off to a few seconds lead & simply sit there. My overall memory is that the races were just boring. He rarely had to battle to overtake & rarely did well if he had to. That's not something you can say about Hamilton at least.
I realise that Vettel's way is perfectly valid, but it wasn't very exciting.
I realise that Vettel's way is perfectly valid, but it wasn't very exciting.
KevinCamaroSS said:
What I am saying is that the RBR car of that era was so far ahead of the competition (a bit like Mercedes now) that there should have been no competition to Vettel, given that Webber was not ever going to be allowed to win. Nobody is arguing that the competition recently has only been between Hamilton and his team-mate. Same in the RBR era. The fact that other teams actually managed to get close is my whole point. Vettel's performances since arriving at Ferrari also rather back up my statement.
Webber was allowed to compete for the win.However he was never a match for Vettel in qualifying and how often did Webber absolutely balls up his starts and lose numerous positions - even from pole position? Vettel aced his starts, safety car restarts and the beginning of races on cold tyres and brakes. Something Webber could never do. That's not team orders - that is just pure ability.
CoolHands said:
If you had the free choice of vettel or alonso in the Renault who would you choose?
As it stands, Alonso.However, he might be a totally rusty and shot driver way passed his peak now.
Vettel at least has a few years left in him unless his confidence is completely shot and his support bubble has disappeared.
kambites said:
Munter said:
Looks like the seat swapping caused by vettel, has lead to alonso coming back!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53325412
If accurate that's arguably the most likely seat for Vettel to take gone. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53325412
I mean I'd put serious $ Alonso could still hand vettel his arse but there's pretty good reason there was no-one left who wanted to employ him!
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