Sebastian Vettel

[anonymous-user]

Ferrari are very sensitive to drivers criticising their cars, particularly the engine. Seb isn't going to hold back. He's already shown he's liable to bin the car.

Logic says they'll part company before too long.

[TheDeuce]

RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:

Ferrari are very sensitive to drivers criticising their cars, particularly the engine. Seb isn't going to hold back. He's already shown he's liable to bin the car.

Logic says they'll part company before too long.

He'll have to speak loudly if he's to be heard above all the criticism they've made of their own car this season!

Even Ferrari will call a spade a spade if the alternative is to look stupid by not acknowledging the fact. They'll fib about the cause of certain mechanical faults etc but they can hardly excuse the fact that the car is an entire second slower than last year's - and at a short circuit.

[anonymous-user]

Wouldn't be the first time.

Prost got dumped for calling his Ferrari a truck and he was fast.

[ajprice]

RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:

Ferrari are very sensitive to drivers criticising their cars, particularly the engine. Seb isn't going to hold back. He's already shown he's liable to bin the car.

Logic says they'll part company before too long.

If they do drop Seb/Seb leaves for Giovanazzi, it would be the proper Ferrari way of a no1 and no2 driver. Seb isn't a willing no2 to Leclerc, and not a willing equal driver either.

[TheDeuce]

ajprice said:

If they do drop Seb/Seb leaves for Giovanazzi, it would be the proper Ferrari way of a no1 and no2 driver. Seb isn't a willing no2 to Leclerc, and not a willing equal driver either.

It would be the traditional Ferrari way of doing things. But I question if that can win a championship these days - even if the car wasn't a turd.

Not that Ferrari 'need' to win to be happy in F1

[anonymous-user]

This year is over for Ferrari winning, probably next year too.

[Leithen]

I'll miss Vettel when he goes. Interesting, intelligent guy who has all in all, dealt with the goldfish bowl of F1 pretty well. Wears his heart on the sleeve a bit too much, but that's no bad thing.

I'd put him alongside Lauda, Hakkinen, Mansell in the WC ranks.

[kiseca]

RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:

jsf said:

Riciardo spanking him was the emperors new clothes moment.

Do you think it was Vettel's talent deficiency being exposed, or his motivation and reliability issues? I can only think of 2014 and last year when Vettel was out-qualified by a team mate, which is not bad form since 2007.

How many seasons out of 13 or so has Vettel been outscored by his team mate?

I don't think Hamilton has always outscored his team mates but I don't see him being labelled as a fraud.

Or the fact that the cars in 2014 were massively different from the cars from the previous four years.... And last year, Le Clerc outqualified him overall, and outperformed him overall, but didn't make him look slow.

Is Vettel an all time great? No. Is he a worthy 4 time world champion? Yes. He was part of a team that won 4 world championships. Well, 8 actually if you count the constructors ones too. He did his part. Is he a sham? No, he's a fast, flawed driver. He's always made mistakes, and he's always been fast, and with age drivers lose speed. Most make up for it with experience, becoming more reliable, but Seb isn't doing that. I think his confidence has been taking a knock since the hybrid cars - which from 2014 were quite unpredictable under braking and acceleration - were introduced and he struggled to adapt to them more than most drivers did.

[Horace Van Khute]

Leithen said:

I'll miss Vettel when he goes. Interesting, intelligent guy who has all in all, dealt with the goldfish bowl of F1 pretty well. Wears his heart on the sleeve a bit too much, but that's no bad thing.

I'd put him alongside Lauda, Hakkinen, Mansell in the WC ranks.

Pure gold

[Durzel]

Your hatred for him is pretty naked.

[HustleRussell]

RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:

Do you think it was Vettel's talent deficiency being exposed, or his motivation and reliability issues? I can only think of 2014 and last year when Vettel was out-qualified by a team mate, which is not bad form since 2007.

How many seasons out of 13 or so has Vettel been outscored by his team mate?

I don't think Hamilton has always outscored his team mates but I don't see him being labelled as a fraud.

Is anybody going to point out the obvious?

[Muzzer79]

RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:

How many seasons out of 13 or so has Vettel been outscored by his team mate?

14 full seasons in F1. He has been outscored twice by a team-mate - Ricciardo in 2014 and LeClerc in 2019.

RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:

I don't think Hamilton has always outscored his team mates

Indeed he hasn't

Lewis was outscored by Jenson Button in 2011 and Nico Rosberg in 2016.

[TheDeuce]

Muzzer79 said:

RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:

How many seasons out of 13 or so has Vettel been outscored by his team mate?

14 full seasons in F1. He has been outscored twice by a team-mate - Ricciardo in 2014 and LeClerc in 2019.

And this season. Which hasn't actually happened yet but one way or another Ferrari will make damned sure it does.

Regards Lewis vs Seb in terms of being outscored - it's worth noting that Lewis was outscored to a far lesser points value than Seb has been. Especially by DR.

Edited by TheDeuce on Thursday 9th July 13:57

[andburg]

HustleRussell said:

Is anybody going to point out the obvious?

that he historically had a clear number 1 status?

[HustleRussell]

andburg said:

HustleRussell said:

Is anybody going to point out the obvious?

that he historically had a clear number 1 status?

Coincidentally except for

Muzzer79 said:

Ricciardo in 2014 and LeClerc in 2019.

[Muzzer79]

HustleRussell said:

andburg said:

HustleRussell said:

Is anybody going to point out the obvious?

that he historically had a clear number 1 status?

Coincidentally except for

Muzzer79 said:

Ricciardo in 2014 and LeClerc in 2019.

Did he though?

Again, surprising myself that I'm defending him but....

2008 he was up against Bourdais. He was by no means the favoured son back then IIRC. He outscored Bourdais on ability.

Moving to RBR for 2009 onwards, Mark Webber was the more experienced driver.

Those early years seemed fairly even, especially in 2009/2010 when they weren't dominant winners.

I'll grant that RBR looked kindly on him, same way McLaren did with Mika Hakkinen, but I don't think that can be argued as clear number 1 status in the same vein as Mansell in '92 or Schumacher in.......1993 to 2006

I don't think teams really do the "clear number 1 driver" thing anymore. They just deliberately pick drivers who are relatively close, but one is faster than the other predominantly, which relatively quickly leads to a preference due to championship.

I'd be really surprised if Sainz (for 2021) Bottas or Albon actually had contracts specifying that they will move over if the other driver is behind at any point, for example. (Schumacher had this benefit in the early 2000s)

[andburg]

think its almost universal these days that you allow both drivers to race until one is no longer mathematically able to win the title.

[kiseca]

He definitely didn't beat his teammates because the team were protecting him. It doesnt add up. 1) Why would they hobble the performance of one of their money makers? 2) Why did they suddenly stop protecting him in 2014 and why would Ferrari slow down Kimi to protect him at all? And 3) Red Bull have, at least since Coulthard left, shown clear favouritism to whichever driver is fastest. And that's not favouritism as in making sure the second driver can't beat him, it#s favouritism as in their language says they think Seb / Ricciardo / Max is doing great and they think Webber / Seb / Ricciardo / Gasly / Albon could pull their finger out a bit more because look what the other guy is doing with the same car.

I don#t believe for a second that Seb was protected from his team mates at Red Bull. He was just faster, until he wasn't, at which point the other guy started winning and became the benchmark for the team's expectations.

[Horace Van Khute]

Durzel said:

Your hatred for him is pretty naked.

I'm simply offended on behalf of Lauda, Hakkinen or Mansel and anyone who finds Vettel's behaviour unacceptable in civilised world.

[anonymous-user]

At the start of 2019 Ferrari publicly backed Vettel as number 1 and we saw a few races of the farce that unfolded to hobble Le Clerc.

Le Clerc was having none of it and forced a change when it became clear he was faster.