Sebastian Vettel

[Oilchange]

Exige77 said:

He must be embarrassed by his performance and the excuses are coming out ?

Ferrari are desperate for constructors points to get above the midfield runners so it’s pretty inconceivable to think they would hobble Vettel’s car.

Why would they do it ?

I think Vettel has since said “he trusts Ferrari to give both drivers equal machinery”.

Don’t be naive now! To suggest Ferrari wouldn’t do such a thing?
I have absolutely no doubt Ferrari or any other team would do this without the slightest guilt.

[thebigmacmoomin]

Perhaps he thinks that he has the worse Ferrari of the 2 but in reality, he can't prove it and Ferrari aren't going to admit to it. Or CLC is just doing a miles better job with the same equipment, Seb knows this and doesn't want his stock to fall so finds an excuse to blame it on.

[kiseca]

Oilchange said:

Exige77 said:

He must be embarrassed by his performance and the excuses are coming out ?

Ferrari are desperate for constructors points to get above the midfield runners so it’s pretty inconceivable to think they would hobble Vettel’s car.

Why would they do it ?

I think Vettel has since said “he trusts Ferrari to give both drivers equal machinery”.

Don’t be naive now! To suggest Ferrari wouldn’t do such a thing?
I have absolutely no doubt Ferrari or any other team would do this without the slightest guilt.

Where does guilt come into it? It's a motive that's missing. Why would they hobble his car? What's the merit that's worth more than the points and money they are losing?

[Muzzer79]

kiseca said:

Oilchange said:

Exige77 said:

He must be embarrassed by his performance and the excuses are coming out ?

Ferrari are desperate for constructors points to get above the midfield runners so it’s pretty inconceivable to think they would hobble Vettel’s car.

Why would they do it ?

I think Vettel has since said “he trusts Ferrari to give both drivers equal machinery”.

Don’t be naive now! To suggest Ferrari wouldn’t do such a thing?
I have absolutely no doubt Ferrari or any other team would do this without the slightest guilt.

Where does guilt come into it? It's a motive that's missing. Why would they hobble his car? What's the merit that's worth more than the points and money they are losing?

I don't think the intimation would be that Ferrari are deliberately slowing Vettel down. That would be shooting themselves in the foot.

It's more a theory that they give the best stuff first to LeClerc and Vettel get's what is leftover. Development, new parts, etc.

Still begs the question as to why they wouldn't be open about this though - Vettel is leaving, why would he get new bits first? But the Italians can be odd sometimes.

[Oilchange]

Guilt/motive. All irrelevant.

We do not know what is going on behind the scenes and that is how Ferrari would like it to stay.

Clearly they are hobbling his car or giving CLC upgrades, or something as Charles is so much quicker

[kiseca]

Muzzer79 said:

kiseca said:

Oilchange said:

Exige77 said:

He must be embarrassed by his performance and the excuses are coming out ?

Ferrari are desperate for constructors points to get above the midfield runners so it’s pretty inconceivable to think they would hobble Vettel’s car.

Why would they do it ?

I think Vettel has since said “he trusts Ferrari to give both drivers equal machinery”.

Don’t be naive now! To suggest Ferrari wouldn’t do such a thing?
I have absolutely no doubt Ferrari or any other team would do this without the slightest guilt.

Where does guilt come into it? It's a motive that's missing. Why would they hobble his car? What's the merit that's worth more than the points and money they are losing?

I don't think the intimation would be that Ferrari are deliberately slowing Vettel down. That would be shooting themselves in the foot.

It's more a theory that they give the best stuff first to LeClerc and Vettel get's what is leftover. Development, new parts, etc.

Still begs the question as to why they wouldn't be open about this though - Vettel is leaving, why would he get new bits first? But the Italians can be odd sometimes.

That I can certainly believe. If you can't make new parts for both cars at the same time, it certainly makes sense to give them to the driver who is performing the best. I'm not sure they have had different bits on the car right now at Ferrari, but certainly Le Clerc's crew may be more motivated by his success and Vettel's side of the garage might be slumping in unconscious sympathy with their driver, giving Le Clerc more of an advantage.

[Fortitude]

Sebastian Vettel Suggests Ferrari F1 is Playing Favorites with Charles Leclerc

Four-time Formula 1 champion convinced his Ferrari is slower than teammate Leclerc's machine.

In Portugal, departing four-time world champion Vettel finished 10th and a lap down. Meanwhile, Leclerc finished fourth and on the lead leap in the sister car. Vettel is not so sure that the deck isn't being stacked against him within his own team.

"You can see in the telemetry that the other car is much faster in some sections, I'm not an idiot," German Vettel said after Sunday's Portuguese Grand Prix. "I don't know if I should say more but I've tried everything. There are the lap times and there are my feelings, but I have to think that we have the same car because I trust the people around me."

https://www.autoweek.com/racing/formula-1/a3447939...


Ferrari shoot down Sebastian Vettel's conspiracy theory that his team-mate Charles Leclerc has been given a faster car - after the German blamed his decline on the manufacturers as Carlos Sainz gets set to replace him

• Sebastian Vettel finished in 10th place in last weekend' Portuguese Grand Prix
• Vettel believes that Ferrari team-mate Charles Leclerc's car is deliberately faster
• Ferrari team boss Mattia Binotto rubbished the 33-year-old German's theory
• Vettel will compete with Racing Point in 2021 with Carlos Sainz going to Ferrari

By Sam Blitz For Mailonline
Published: 12:56, 26 October 2020 | Updated: 15:15, 26 October 2020

Sebastian Vettel's conspiracy theory that Ferrari team-mate Charles Leclerc's car is faster than his has been rubbished by team boss Mattia Binotto.

Vettel claimed after the race that he had been 'biting his tongue' about the controversy all season, but Binotto claims the 33-year-old should be doing more mid-race to improve his results.

The four-time Formula One champion claimed: 'It is obvious that the other car is much faster. Where (do) I lose time? I have been biting my tongue all year long.

'Some idiot might never figure it out, but am I a complete idiot? I doubt it.

'At some point you should be lucky and hit the limit. I never hit it and if I do, then only with a lot of difficulty. On the other side (of the garage) it looks much easier.

'I have to look at myself and do my thing, but of course it hurts. Especially because my own expectations are higher than the expectations from outside.

'I don't really care about all the fuss. But for me in the car, it is of course difficult to process, because I am too ambitious and too hungry for more.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article...

[Schermerhorn]

kiseca said:

Muzzer79 said:

kiseca said:

Oilchange said:

Exige77 said:

He must be embarrassed by his performance and the excuses are coming out ?

Ferrari are desperate for constructors points to get above the midfield runners so it’s pretty inconceivable to think they would hobble Vettel’s car.

Why would they do it ?

I think Vettel has since said “he trusts Ferrari to give both drivers equal machinery”.

Don’t be naive now! To suggest Ferrari wouldn’t do such a thing?
I have absolutely no doubt Ferrari or any other team would do this without the slightest guilt.

Where does guilt come into it? It's a motive that's missing. Why would they hobble his car? What's the merit that's worth more than the points and money they are losing?

I don't think the intimation would be that Ferrari are deliberately slowing Vettel down. That would be shooting themselves in the foot.

It's more a theory that they give the best stuff first to LeClerc and Vettel get's what is leftover. Development, new parts, etc.

Still begs the question as to why they wouldn't be open about this though - Vettel is leaving, why would he get new bits first? But the Italians can be odd sometimes.

That I can certainly believe. If you can't make new parts for both cars at the same time, it certainly makes sense to give them to the driver who is performing the best. I'm not sure they have had different bits on the car right now at Ferrari, but certainly Le Clerc's crew may be more motivated by his success and Vettel's side of the garage might be slumping in unconscious sympathy with their driver, giving Le Clerc more of an advantage.

As much as I am critical of Vettel this year - his total inability to overcome the mental hurdles this year have been disappointing - I am also a big fan of his too. He genuinely performed like an elite athlete during him hey day and I find it hard to believe, without something holding him back, that he would just lose so much 'natural' performance - unless something was amiss with the car or on a political/management level.

Last year it was pretty close between Leclerc and Vettel (the head to heads were closer than people realise despite all the poles Charles got) and Vettel did have momentum towards the end of the year. So for him to fall away the way he has has been quite shocking and I'm not entirely convinced it is not 'manufactured' in some type of way.

A four time world champion does not just lose ability or speed suddenly. Yes, if he was a one time winner like Panis, Trulli, Gasly or Maldonado you can call it a "fluke" or whatever but when you're a 53 time race winner and still the holder of many records, you're anything but a bum.
It's not like he was a one trick pony either; he won in different cars and different teams also. I'm pretty sure he is being punked at Ferrari now and has mentally checked out.

[Exige77]

Oilchange said:

Guilt/motive. All irrelevant.

We do not know what is going on behind the scenes and that is how Ferrari would like it to stay.

Clearly they are hobbling his car or giving CLC upgrades, or something as Charles is so much quicker

Maybe Charles is so much quicker because he’s so much quicker ?

Ferrari want to win the WCC more than anything, that means getting points with both cars.

Ferrari might have a history of dodgy deeds but only to help them get what they want which is wins or points.

[anonymous-user]

Exige77 said:

Maybe Charles is so much quicker because he’s so much quicker ?

Ferrari want to win the WCC more than anything, that means getting points with both cars.

Ferrari might have a history of dodgy deeds but only to help them get what they want which is wins or points.

Was there a significant difference in pace between the two last year? The handling behaviour of the car would have to change massively in CLC's favour for the gap to be explained by driving alone. I know we're talking about a driver who thrived on blown diffusers, but he is also a 4 time world champion, he made KR look haggard and past it at Ferrari. He knows how to drive quickly.

Something is not right.

[thegreenhell]

Exige77 said:

Maybe Charles is so much quicker because he’s so much quicker ?

Ferrari want to win the WCC more than anything, that means getting points with both cars.

Ferrari might have a history of dodgy deeds but only to help them get what they want which is wins or points.

They were very evenly matched last year, although Charles edged the season overall. The gap has opened significantly since it was announced that Vettel was being replaced in the team. Whether it's driver motivation or team motivation towards that driver, or a combination of factors, I believe it's more Vettel's side underperforming than Charles simply excelling.

[Exige77]

thegreenhell said:

Exige77 said:

Maybe Charles is so much quicker because he’s so much quicker ?

Ferrari want to win the WCC more than anything, that means getting points with both cars.

Ferrari might have a history of dodgy deeds but only to help them get what they want which is wins or points.

They were very evenly matched last year, although Charles edged the season overall. The gap has opened significantly since it was announced that Vettel was being replaced in the team. Whether it's driver motivation or team motivation towards that driver, or a combination of factors, I believe it's more Vettel's side underperforming than Charles simply excelling.

I think the main difference is Seb has lost his motivation.

The car is clearly slower (and legal) this year and needs to be driven right on the very limit to be even slightly competitive. Charlie is clearly up for it but Seb isn’t.

Even when Ferrari had a good car he still made mistakes. You can understand that of a rookie but not from an old hand 4 times world champion.

If the car is good, Seb can drive it, win a few and crash a few. If it isn’t good, he’s completely uncompetitive. We have seen it before.

[anonymous-user]

I can understand Seb phoning it in to some degree, however he's not that slow compared to CLC. I also don't think his ego enjoys people believing he is so slow, hence the outburst.

[Dermot O'Logical]

Vettel's heyday came when the cars were lighter, nimbler, more susceptible to aerodynamic influence, and he had a car with what Mark Donohue once described as "The Unfair Advantage", namely an Adrian Newey designed blown diffuser, which he was the only driver to master.

The current generation of cars don't suit his driving style, but it's hard to reconcile that with the fact that he could adopt the counter-intuitive style required to maximise the benefit of the afore-mentioned blown diffuser.

LeClerc, on the other hand, reminds me more and more of Alain Prost - he's undramatic, doesn't seem to be trying to over-drive the car, and suddenly he's up near the top of the time sheets, several tenths quicker than Vettel.

[Oilchange]

I don’t think it is driver related at all. I think Vettel would be one car behind or in front of CLC if they were the same. I think it is Ferrari knobbling Vettels car, for what reasons I don’t know for sure.
And I don’t much care for Vettel.

[Schermerhorn]

Dermot O'Logical said:

Vettel's heyday came when the cars were lighter, nimbler, more susceptible to aerodynamic influence, and he had a car with what Mark Donohue once described as "The Unfair Advantage", namely an Adrian Newey designed blown diffuser, which he was the only driver to master.

....but he's also won over a dozen races in cars that were not "lighter, nimbler, more susceptible to aerodynamic influence" as well. The 2015 Ferrari was not designed around him and he had zero input into it, yet he won 3 races in it convincingly.

In 2017 and 2018 he was a genuine championship contender before he had brain fade moments but let's not forget that that reliability and team errors on strategy bodged things up for him too.

Now that Vettel is (almost) out of the picture we'll be able to gauge just how much he was holding Ferrari back....if that ever was a thing.

[Schermerhorn]

Fortitude said:

Sebastian Vettel Suggests Ferrari F1 is Playing Favorites with Charles Leclerc

Four-time Formula 1 champion convinced his Ferrari is slower than teammate Leclerc's machine.

In Portugal, departing four-time world champion Vettel finished 10th and a lap down. Meanwhile, Leclerc finished fourth and on the lead leap in the sister car. Vettel is not so sure that the deck isn't being stacked against him within his own team.

"You can see in the telemetry that the other car is much faster in some sections, I'm not an idiot," German Vettel said after Sunday's Portuguese Grand Prix. "I don't know if I should say more but I've tried everything. There are the lap times and there are my feelings, but I have to think that we have the same car because I trust the people around me."

https://www.autoweek.com/racing/formula-1/a3447939...


Ferrari shoot down Sebastian Vettel's conspiracy theory that his team-mate Charles Leclerc has been given a faster car - after the German blamed his decline on the manufacturers as Carlos Sainz gets set to replace him

• Sebastian Vettel finished in 10th place in last weekend' Portuguese Grand Prix
• Vettel believes that Ferrari team-mate Charles Leclerc's car is deliberately faster
• Ferrari team boss Mattia Binotto rubbished the 33-year-old German's theory
• Vettel will compete with Racing Point in 2021 with Carlos Sainz going to Ferrari

By Sam Blitz For Mailonline
Published: 12:56, 26 October 2020 | Updated: 15:15, 26 October 2020

Sebastian Vettel's conspiracy theory that Ferrari team-mate Charles Leclerc's car is faster than his has been rubbished by team boss Mattia Binotto.

Vettel claimed after the race that he had been 'biting his tongue' about the controversy all season, but Binotto claims the 33-year-old should be doing more mid-race to improve his results.

The four-time Formula One champion claimed: 'It is obvious that the other car is much faster. Where (do) I lose time? I have been biting my tongue all year long.

'Some idiot might never figure it out, but am I a complete idiot? I doubt it.

'At some point you should be lucky and hit the limit. I never hit it and if I do, then only with a lot of difficulty. On the other side (of the garage) it looks much easier.

'I have to look at myself and do my thing, but of course it hurts. Especially because my own expectations are higher than the expectations from outside.

'I don't really care about all the fuss. But for me in the car, it is of course difficult to process, because I am too ambitious and too hungry for more.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article...

If the claims of "sabotage" are true I just hope he uses it as motivation for next year..

Personally I just think he has the more undeveloped car - older parts, less upgrades, less briefing, less input - and it's culminated in a performance deficit overall.

I mean, Vettel didn't forget how to drive the car in Hungary did he? He didn't forget how to manage tyres in Spain?

The Sky Sports team have alluded to it subtly too..."we can't wait to hear exactly what has gone on behind the scenes at Ferrari with Vettel...."

[swisstoni]

I’m sure Mark Webber is rubbing his square chin thoughtfully.

[Teddy Lop]

Schermerhorn said:

Dermot O'Logical said:

Vettel's heyday came when the cars were lighter, nimbler, more susceptible to aerodynamic influence, and he had a car with what Mark Donohue once described as "The Unfair Advantage", namely an Adrian Newey designed blown diffuser, which he was the only driver to master.

....but he's also won over a dozen races in cars that were not "lighter, nimbler, more susceptible to aerodynamic influence" as well. The 2015 Ferrari was not designed around him and he had zero input into it, yet he won 3 races in it convincingly.

In 2017 and 2018 he was a genuine championship contender before he had brain fade moments but let's not forget that that reliability and team errors on strategy bodged things up for him too.

Now that Vettel is (almost) out of the picture we'll be able to gauge just how much he was holding Ferrari back....if that ever was a thing.

I mean never say never especially where the scarlet team are concerned but it'd surprise me if ferrari were nobbling him to that degree; leclerc still has to have his ego kept in check no?

I don't think vettels ever had the ability to drag speed out of/flatter a sub optimal car TBH. He suddenly found himself in a ropey car in '14 and Danny ric put Seb on his knee, pulled down his pants and spanked his arse.

[Schermerhorn]

Teddy Lop said:

Schermerhorn said:

Dermot O'Logical said:

Vettel's heyday came when the cars were lighter, nimbler, more susceptible to aerodynamic influence, and he had a car with what Mark Donohue once described as "The Unfair Advantage", namely an Adrian Newey designed blown diffuser, which he was the only driver to master.

....but he's also won over a dozen races in cars that were not "lighter, nimbler, more susceptible to aerodynamic influence" as well. The 2015 Ferrari was not designed around him and he had zero input into it, yet he won 3 races in it convincingly.

In 2017 and 2018 he was a genuine championship contender before he had brain fade moments but let's not forget that that reliability and team errors on strategy bodged things up for him too.

Now that Vettel is (almost) out of the picture we'll be able to gauge just how much he was holding Ferrari back....if that ever was a thing.

I mean never say never especially where the scarlet team are concerned but it'd surprise me if ferrari were nobbling him to that degree; leclerc still has to have his ego kept in check no?

I don't think vettels ever had the ability to drag speed out of/flatter a sub optimal car TBH. He suddenly found himself in a ropey car in '14 and Danny ric put Seb on his knee, pulled down his pants and spanked his arse.

Not quite spank him the way people think - I think Vettel had more DNFs too - but it was a beating nontheless.

On the other hand, Ricciardo got beaten by Kyvat - the man who has been mentally buried since 2016 - in 2015. Maybe Ricciardo is not that good either, but his smiley face and charisma masks some of his deficiencies. Remember how Button was smashed by Fisichella in 2001?

Maybe Vettel can extract more from a "Tier 1" car than a "Tier 2" car? Some guys have higher ceilings and all that.....

Edited by Schermerhorn on Monday 26th October 21:12