Sebastian Vettel
Discussion
Schermerhorn said:
TheDeuce said:
Gad-Westy said:
Stroll is nowhere near as slow as people on here make out. He's just bit hot headed at times. We've had far worse drivers in F1 than Stroll.
Vettel is a strange one. It really isn't long ago since he was spanking Kimi week in week out and challenging for the title. Last season, despite him seemingly having a shocker he was still pretty much neck and neck with CLC. Had a better start to the season than end. But this year he's way off the pace. I don't think it's just a dip in form, it really seems that this car is just totally at odds with his driving style. He's slow and prone to errors which I suspect is coming from trying to overdrive to compensate. I haven't quite written SV off yet. Really hope to see some form from him with a fresh start next year.
I agree that he can't personally have lost so much time a lap compared to his 2018 & 2019 self. But seriously, how many times are we going to conclude it's the car that's causing the problem - not the driver!? He's an F1 driver, being able to get at least passable results out of these cars Vs his team mate is pretty much the minimum requirement.Vettel is a strange one. It really isn't long ago since he was spanking Kimi week in week out and challenging for the title. Last season, despite him seemingly having a shocker he was still pretty much neck and neck with CLC. Had a better start to the season than end. But this year he's way off the pace. I don't think it's just a dip in form, it really seems that this car is just totally at odds with his driving style. He's slow and prone to errors which I suspect is coming from trying to overdrive to compensate. I haven't quite written SV off yet. Really hope to see some form from him with a fresh start next year.
I firmly believe the biggest part of the problem right now is that he's locked out of the Ferrari inner circle - and worse still, he doesn't give a toss about the team he's driving for.
That's not to say he's still 'got it', I don't know either way. But a decade later I've seen enough of seb to know he definitely won't be trying to flatter Ferrari right now..
At the Nurburgring, Vettel only got limited running with the new updates and had limited data. I think it was between FP3 and Q1 when he got the updates whereas Leclrerc had been running them all Friday and on Saturday morning too.
It's not like there was a shortage or late delivery of the parts either. The team just didnt put them onto the car until Qualifying. Bizarre.
TheDeuce said:
I know, there are lots of isolated examples that can maybe be explained away. But he hasn't been 'epic' in any car since RB had to ditch their blown diffuser advantage. That's my point. Several cars later and at some point it's not unreasonable to conclude he's a particularly car limited driver. He's also been repeatedly beaten by upstart team mates in the same cars since the glory days.
I wouldn't say repeatedly is the right word. It's been twice, and when he joined Ferrari his success at the start was at least equal in results to his well regarded predecessor, and Raikkonen couldn't touch him.Alonso couldn't win a championship with them either, remember, though of course there's no way of knowing if either one of them would have done better in the other's cars. And Le Clerc, who everyone is now saying is a top driver, got the upper hand but until this year he wasn't embarrassing Seb for pace, and Charles spun and crashed those Ferraris from time to time too. Not as often as Seb, granted, but the car was certainly difficult and even compared to Charles, Seb still looked pretty quick.
He's undoubtedly the least "great" of the 5 drivers who have one at least four titles, but one particularly crap season, under duress and nearing the twighlight of his career, doesn't make him a pretender who was really a midfielder his whole career. Not saying that's what you're implying, but many certainly are. It's double standards to say his success is all down to the car and his failure is all down to the driver. He has played a part in both, as have his cars.
Vettel is clearly demoralised, demotivated, uncomfortable with this years Ferrari and appears to be just 'going through the motions'. The big questions that will need to be answered next year are: -
1. Once you 'relax' and stop pushing for every last bit of performance how easy is it to then break that habit and get back to your previous level?
2. If Vettel does or does not get back to his previous level will we be able to tell given the only direct benchmark will be Lance Stroll?
3. Regardless of his on track performance Vettel brings a lot of value to Racing Point in terms of marketing and experience of how top teams operate (Similar to the roll DC had at Red Bull in the early days). What level of on track performance loss can Vettel have whilst remaining a net benefit to Racing Point?
Oilchange said:
Exige77 said:
He must be embarrassed by his performance and the excuses are coming out ?
Ferrari are desperate for constructors points to get above the midfield runners so it’s pretty inconceivable to think they would hobble Vettel’s car.
Why would they do it ?
I think Vettel has since said “he trusts Ferrari to give both drivers equal machinery”.
Don’t be naive now! To suggest Ferrari wouldn’t do such a thing? Ferrari are desperate for constructors points to get above the midfield runners so it’s pretty inconceivable to think they would hobble Vettel’s car.
Why would they do it ?
I think Vettel has since said “he trusts Ferrari to give both drivers equal machinery”.
I have absolutely no doubt Ferrari or any other team would do this without the slightest guilt.
In an interview in Portugal, Lewis said that he is constantly striving to improve his performance, both physically and mentally and become a better person.
In comparison, I feel that Seb is a contented family man who likes to drive fast cars.
I think that when both Seb and Lewis arrived in F1, they just set out to drive flat out, all the time and rely on their natural ability - rather like we tend to think of Max, though I think he has matured a lot.
Lewis is just as hungry for his next win / season, but is now much more likely to have a clear strategy for every win and executes it perfectly when the time comes.
When Lewis lost pole on Saturday, I felt that if he could not get Valteri into T2, then he would preserve his tyres and go long. This was made very easy for him because of the debris pickup and the timing of the VSC, but I doubt that Lewis ever thought that he did not have the race in the bag.
In comparison, I feel that Seb is a contented family man who likes to drive fast cars.
I think that when both Seb and Lewis arrived in F1, they just set out to drive flat out, all the time and rely on their natural ability - rather like we tend to think of Max, though I think he has matured a lot.
Lewis is just as hungry for his next win / season, but is now much more likely to have a clear strategy for every win and executes it perfectly when the time comes.
When Lewis lost pole on Saturday, I felt that if he could not get Valteri into T2, then he would preserve his tyres and go long. This was made very easy for him because of the debris pickup and the timing of the VSC, but I doubt that Lewis ever thought that he did not have the race in the bag.
realjv said:
Vettel is clearly demoralised, demotivated, uncomfortable with this years Ferrari and appears to be just 'going through the motions'. The big questions that will need to be answered next year are: -
1. Once you 'relax' and stop pushing for every last bit of performance how easy is it to then break that habit and get back to your previous level?
2. If Vettel does or does not get back to his previous level will we be able to tell given the only direct benchmark will be Lance Stroll?
3. Regardless of his on track performance Vettel brings a lot of value to Racing Point in terms of marketing and experience of how top teams operate (Similar to the roll DC had at Red Bull in the early days). What level of on track performance loss can Vettel have whilst remaining a net benefit to Racing Point?
even with a midfield driver and Stroll the RP has had near podium speed almost everywhere, the current drivers have not been spinning around like we've seen the Red Bull and Ferrari drivers. The RP issue this season has been it's drivers hitting things on track, not a propensity to leaving it.1. Once you 'relax' and stop pushing for every last bit of performance how easy is it to then break that habit and get back to your previous level?
2. If Vettel does or does not get back to his previous level will we be able to tell given the only direct benchmark will be Lance Stroll?
3. Regardless of his on track performance Vettel brings a lot of value to Racing Point in terms of marketing and experience of how top teams operate (Similar to the roll DC had at Red Bull in the early days). What level of on track performance loss can Vettel have whilst remaining a net benefit to Racing Point?
Based on that I'd say next year's Aston should be a more confidence inspiring and predictable platform and that is what Seb needs, maybe he can't dance that fine line as well he used to but hes still a bloody quick driver. Even if hes no faster than Perez is the prestige he brings is worth signing him for.
TheDeuce said:
I know, there are lots of isolated examples that can maybe be explained away. But he hasn't been 'epic' in any car since RB had to ditch their blown diffuser advantage. That's my point. Several cars later and at some point it's not unreasonable to conclude he's a particularly car limited driver. He's also been repeatedly beaten by upstart team mates in the same cars since the glory days.
My view (which may have been covered 10 times already in this long thread) is that SV is a very quick driver, but only:- in a car that suits him perfectly; and
- when he is not under pressure.
So in RB's dominant years he got to the front and drove away. He repeatedly makes mistakes under pressure and can't get the best out of a car that is not 100% suited to him.
Other drivers can deal better with both of the above, I think that makes them both better drivers and better racers and that is why I think that his 4 titles flatter him beyond his ability compared to them.
David_M said:
TheDeuce said:
I know, there are lots of isolated examples that can maybe be explained away. But he hasn't been 'epic' in any car since RB had to ditch their blown diffuser advantage. That's my point. Several cars later and at some point it's not unreasonable to conclude he's a particularly car limited driver. He's also been repeatedly beaten by upstart team mates in the same cars since the glory days.
My view (which may have been covered 10 times already in this long thread) is that SV is a very quick driver, but only:- in a car that suits him perfectly; and
- when he is not under pressure.
So in RB's dominant years he got to the front and drove away. He repeatedly makes mistakes under pressure and can't get the best out of a car that is not 100% suited to him.
Other drivers can deal better with both of the above, I think that makes them both better drivers and better racers and that is why I think that his 4 titles flatter him beyond his ability compared to them.
If F1 was all 20 drivers in identical cars and taking it in turns to set fastest laps, I expect he'd shine quite often. Sadly, that's not what the sport can offer him.
If he's at least happy and not in the running for a title at AM, he'll probably do just fine for them. Hope so as otherwise he might as well just retire..
If you take a dispassionate view of the last few seasons, Vettel might stand a fair chance at Aston Martin Next year.
Red Bull & Ferrari have both pursued a high rake design, which increasingly appears to be a dead end. Both teams have been fooled into thinking it is workable by having a driver each that has a freakish ability to control an unstable rear end. All well and good, but probably ultimately limiting. Perhaps if they both had power units on a par with Mercedes, they would challenge for wins, but only with a single driver each.
Gasly, Albon and Vettel have been sacrificed, whether knowingly or not, to a design strategy that produces either a fundamentally imbalanced package or aerodynamics that are inconsistent.
I think there's a fair chance that Vettel will follow Gasly in having a renaissance away from such a design. Ferrari have been lost since Allison departed and Newey needs to accept that sans blown diffuser, the low rake design is the way to go. Perhaps if Red Bull got Hulkenburg in for the rest of the season he might have the stature to tell them what they need to know.
Red Bull & Ferrari have both pursued a high rake design, which increasingly appears to be a dead end. Both teams have been fooled into thinking it is workable by having a driver each that has a freakish ability to control an unstable rear end. All well and good, but probably ultimately limiting. Perhaps if they both had power units on a par with Mercedes, they would challenge for wins, but only with a single driver each.
Gasly, Albon and Vettel have been sacrificed, whether knowingly or not, to a design strategy that produces either a fundamentally imbalanced package or aerodynamics that are inconsistent.
I think there's a fair chance that Vettel will follow Gasly in having a renaissance away from such a design. Ferrari have been lost since Allison departed and Newey needs to accept that sans blown diffuser, the low rake design is the way to go. Perhaps if Red Bull got Hulkenburg in for the rest of the season he might have the stature to tell them what they need to know.
So in RB's dominant years he got to the front and drove away. He repeatedly makes mistakes under pressure and can't get the best out of a car that is not 100% suited to him.
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2 of the 4 years were very hard fought.
There are few drivers who can really get an F1 car that isn't suited to them to work properly - none of them are currently on the grid. One is returning next year, though.
Landcrab_Six said:
2 of the 4 years were very hard fought.
There are few drivers who can really get an F1 car that isn't suited to them to work properly - none of them are currently on the grid. One is returning next year, though.
Seb's issue seems to not be that a particular car isn't suited to him.. But that only one car was suited to him - and it's a car no one can produce anymore as it had a particular and now illegal advantage.
Maybe he will get his sticky rear end (bad mental image There are few drivers who can really get an F1 car that isn't suited to them to work properly - none of them are currently on the grid. One is returning next year, though.
Seb's issue seems to not be that a particular car isn't suited to him.. But that only one car was suited to him - and it's a car no one can produce anymore as it had a particular and now illegal advantage.
) back in 2022 and beyond, that may help...Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff