Sebastian Vettel
Discussion
Oilchange said:
What's written in the contract? None of us know. Maybe it is written that he can't be excluded from any weekend?
Maybe I was being a bit 'tinfoilly' but Ferrari don't lose that much money doing this compared to the many millions in guaranteed annual payments from F1. Might look bad if their rising star is outperformed by the outgoing bloke who is persona non grata...
Anyway, it was just my thoughts really.
Sorry, I wasn't really referring particularly to your post in particular. It just comes up a lot on here with more or less any driver that is being out perfromed by a team mate. But with any good conspiracy there really needs to be a significant benefit to the conspirator. IMO no team is going to sacrifice available points on the table. What I could believe is that Vettel is last in the queue for upgrades etc so might not be on truly equal footing now that he is heading for the door but I doubt it runs any deeper than that. Maybe I was being a bit 'tinfoilly' but Ferrari don't lose that much money doing this compared to the many millions in guaranteed annual payments from F1. Might look bad if their rising star is outperformed by the outgoing bloke who is persona non grata...
Anyway, it was just my thoughts really.
HustleRussell said:
Frimley111R said:
Are there race/accidents stats that relate to SV? He seems to have made so many mistakes but perhaps that's because we focus in him so much
I don't think that's the case. To my recollection, which may be incorrect, Vettel was not particularly mistake prone before Leclerc joined him at Ferrari.
Perhaps Vettel was driving within his and the car's comfort zone as he had most often enjoyed a relatively safe margin to Raikkonen.
Leclerc, coming in as a rookie, sought to destroy Giovanazzi and put himself on the map. In the process of doing so he got all of his spinning out of the way at Alfa Romeo. When he got into the Ferrari and was faster than Vettel, it was Vettel who then had to explore this area beyond the limits of the car's outright grip. His learning process was much more conspicuous than Leclerc's- the difference between the drivers is that Leclerc seemed to have learned to avoid the overdriving errors and spins within the first half of his rookie season, where Vettel, spooked by Leclerc, continues even now.
He's certainly got worse since LeClerc came along, but even before that he's made a number or memorable mistakes - feels like more than most other drivers, but as said, that might be more because we focus on him.
Regarding spins specifically, that trait has been exposed since he lost the blown diffuser advantage/security. Obviously this and last year have been excessive even for a driver with that trait! I can't think of another driver that's been facing backwards quite as often as seb over the last decade.
Trouble is.. the more mistakes he makes... The more likely he seems to make even more. That appears to be his biggest weakness. If his head was in a better place there is no denying he has real talent. Flawed but talented.
Sebastian is very much a confidence driver, when he was racing and beating Webber he seemed untouchable. Daniel Ricciardo turned up and handed him his backside on a plate and he just fell away and went to Ferrari.
Initially at Ferrari he was going well, but fell away once Leclerc joined. Being rejected so early this year and probably feeling a bit unloved, has led to him not giving his best.
I think when he arrives at Aston Martin, we will see more of the old Sebastian (I hope) an he will have a team-mate he can handle. Also being out of the glare of the Ferrari spotlight will do him good. Aston Martin might just grow into a very competitive team over the next few years (Stroll money, Mercedes Links etc...) I believe Seb could flourish there.
Initially at Ferrari he was going well, but fell away once Leclerc joined. Being rejected so early this year and probably feeling a bit unloved, has led to him not giving his best.
I think when he arrives at Aston Martin, we will see more of the old Sebastian (I hope) an he will have a team-mate he can handle. Also being out of the glare of the Ferrari spotlight will do him good. Aston Martin might just grow into a very competitive team over the next few years (Stroll money, Mercedes Links etc...) I believe Seb could flourish there.
Gad-Westy said:
Oilchange said:
What's written in the contract? None of us know. Maybe it is written that he can't be excluded from any weekend?
Maybe I was being a bit 'tinfoilly' but Ferrari don't lose that much money doing this compared to the many millions in guaranteed annual payments from F1. Might look bad if their rising star is outperformed by the outgoing bloke who is persona non grata...
Anyway, it was just my thoughts really.
Sorry, I wasn't really referring particularly to your post in particular. It just comes up a lot on here with more or less any driver that is being out perfromed by a team mate. But with any good conspiracy there really needs to be a significant benefit to the conspirator. IMO no team is going to sacrifice available points on the table. What I could believe is that Vettel is last in the queue for upgrades etc so might not be on truly equal footing now that he is heading for the door but I doubt it runs any deeper than that. Maybe I was being a bit 'tinfoilly' but Ferrari don't lose that much money doing this compared to the many millions in guaranteed annual payments from F1. Might look bad if their rising star is outperformed by the outgoing bloke who is persona non grata...
Anyway, it was just my thoughts really.
Read Johnny Herberts book and see how they favoured Schumacher over him and how they turned down his car when he was qualifying faster so he couldn't beat the chosen one. Then when he did he was treated really dreadfully by Briatore...Nasty piece of work. Some might argue that it was just business but where there's smoke...
There is so much spite and politics within the sport, or at least was then, that I don't rule anything out.
Edited by Oilchange on Monday 9th November 19:43
Schermerhorn said:
Teddy Lop said:
Oilchange said:
judging by the comedy pit stop and 'wheel issue' when he was in the points it appears to me that it's Ferrari that are scuppering him ...
Its been noted the problematic wheel was the one he smashed into Kevin with...Really just one of those things. Like when Haas managed to send both cars out after pitting with loose wheels... And then the following year at the same circuit amazingly managed to do it to one of them again.
TheDeuce said:
I'd like to see the stats Vs the average driver, or perhaps the average top drivers (more likely to be under similar pressure).
He's certainly got worse since LeClerc came along, but even before that he's made a number or memorable mistakes - feels like more than most other drivers, but as said, that might be more because we focus on him.
Regarding spins specifically, that trait has been exposed since he lost the blown diffuser advantage/security. Obviously this and last year have been excessive even for a driver with that trait! I can't think of another driver that's been facing backwards quite as often as seb over the last decade.
Trouble is.. the more mistakes he makes... The more likely he seems to make even more. That appears to be his biggest weakness. If his head was in a better place there is no denying he has real talent. Flawed but talented.
I'd have to disagree - I think he has very limited talent! He's certainly got worse since LeClerc came along, but even before that he's made a number or memorable mistakes - feels like more than most other drivers, but as said, that might be more because we focus on him.
Regarding spins specifically, that trait has been exposed since he lost the blown diffuser advantage/security. Obviously this and last year have been excessive even for a driver with that trait! I can't think of another driver that's been facing backwards quite as often as seb over the last decade.
Trouble is.. the more mistakes he makes... The more likely he seems to make even more. That appears to be his biggest weakness. If his head was in a better place there is no denying he has real talent. Flawed but talented.
He just got lucky crashing into others, including team-mates, when it worked for him but now he is a complete waste of space.
Still he might well provide us with crash of the year in 2021.
Mr Tidy said:
TheDeuce said:
I'd like to see the stats Vs the average driver, or perhaps the average top drivers (more likely to be under similar pressure).
He's certainly got worse since LeClerc came along, but even before that he's made a number or memorable mistakes - feels like more than most other drivers, but as said, that might be more because we focus on him.
Regarding spins specifically, that trait has been exposed since he lost the blown diffuser advantage/security. Obviously this and last year have been excessive even for a driver with that trait! I can't think of another driver that's been facing backwards quite as often as seb over the last decade.
Trouble is.. the more mistakes he makes... The more likely he seems to make even more. That appears to be his biggest weakness. If his head was in a better place there is no denying he has real talent. Flawed but talented.
I'd have to disagree - I think he has very limited talent! He's certainly got worse since LeClerc came along, but even before that he's made a number or memorable mistakes - feels like more than most other drivers, but as said, that might be more because we focus on him.
Regarding spins specifically, that trait has been exposed since he lost the blown diffuser advantage/security. Obviously this and last year have been excessive even for a driver with that trait! I can't think of another driver that's been facing backwards quite as often as seb over the last decade.
Trouble is.. the more mistakes he makes... The more likely he seems to make even more. That appears to be his biggest weakness. If his head was in a better place there is no denying he has real talent. Flawed but talented.
He just got lucky crashing into others, including team-mates, when it worked for him but now he is a complete waste of space.
Still he might well provide us with crash of the year in 2021.
His multiple WC's weren't luck, and he didn't have quite the extent of equipment advantage that currently prevails either.
He's just lacking motivation. Happens to all of us at times. Hopefully it will return.
DaveZed said:
That's an uncharacteristically untidy opinion.
His multiple WC's weren't luck, and he didn't have quite the extent of equipment advantage that currently prevails either.
He's just lacking motivation. Happens to all of us at times. Hopefully it will return.
I don't think so! He had the best car for 4 years and ignored team orders (if you ask Mark Webber) and now he's just making up the numbers trundling around at the back as a lost cause - time to retire. His multiple WC's weren't luck, and he didn't have quite the extent of equipment advantage that currently prevails either.
He's just lacking motivation. Happens to all of us at times. Hopefully it will return.
Mr Tidy said:
DaveZed said:
That's an uncharacteristically untidy opinion.
His multiple WC's weren't luck, and he didn't have quite the extent of equipment advantage that currently prevails either.
He's just lacking motivation. Happens to all of us at times. Hopefully it will return.
I don't think so! He had the best car for 4 years and ignored team orders (if you ask Mark Webber) and now he's just making up the numbers trundling around at the back as a lost cause - time to retire. His multiple WC's weren't luck, and he didn't have quite the extent of equipment advantage that currently prevails either.
He's just lacking motivation. Happens to all of us at times. Hopefully it will return.
If you look how poor some of the driving was from Vettel during those years and still pulling away easily from the rest of the field, it's staggering.
His pole laps were blinding fast despite missing apexes in so many corners.
M5-911 said:
Mr Tidy said:
DaveZed said:
That's an uncharacteristically untidy opinion.
His multiple WC's weren't luck, and he didn't have quite the extent of equipment advantage that currently prevails either.
He's just lacking motivation. Happens to all of us at times. Hopefully it will return.
I don't think so! He had the best car for 4 years and ignored team orders (if you ask Mark Webber) and now he's just making up the numbers trundling around at the back as a lost cause - time to retire. His multiple WC's weren't luck, and he didn't have quite the extent of equipment advantage that currently prevails either.
He's just lacking motivation. Happens to all of us at times. Hopefully it will return.
If you look how poor some of the driving was from Vettel during those years and still pulling away easily from the rest of the field, it's staggering.
His pole laps were blinding fast despite missing apexes in so many corners.
M5-911 said:
Mr Tidy said:
I don't think so! He had the best car for 4 years and ignored team orders (if you ask Mark Webber) and now he's just making up the numbers trundling around at the back as a lost cause - time to retire.
I think that many people really undermine how good that Redbull was during the Vettel/Webber years.If you look how poor some of the driving was from Vettel during those years and still pulling away easily from the rest of the field, it's staggering.
His pole laps were blinding fast despite missing apexes in so many corners.
M5-911 said:
His pole laps were blinding fast despite missing apexes in so many corners.
I simply don't believe that a top-level racing driver, in the prime of his career, would be doing stuff as fundamentally inept as 'missing apexes' in quali, and still beating the other drivers, let alone his teammate.paulguitar said:
M5-911 said:
His pole laps were blinding fast despite missing apexes in so many corners.
I simply don't believe that a top-level racing driver, in the prime of his career, would be doing stuff as fundamentally inept as 'missing apexes' in quali, and still beating the other drivers, let alone his teammate.Teddy Lop said:
Mark Webber was thrashing him and would have been WDC before he fell off his bike and did the last few races needing cortisone injections (IIRC) for the pain (which dull your edge) and he never really came back.
Webber had his bike accident after the 2008 season had finished.The 2008 season results show Vettel placed 8th with 35 points and Webber placed 11th with 21 points.
So was Webber 'thrashing' Vettel, prior to his accident?
paulguitar said:
Teddy Lop said:
Mark Webber was thrashing him and would have been WDC before he fell off his bike and did the last few races needing cortisone injections (IIRC) for the pain (which dull your edge) and he never really came back.
Webber had his bike accident after the 2008 season had finished.The 2008 season results show Vettel placed 8th with 35 points and Webber placed 11th with 21 points.
So was Webber 'thrashing' Vettel, prior to his accident?
Teddy Lop said:
paulguitar said:
Teddy Lop said:
Mark Webber was thrashing him and would have been WDC before he fell off his bike and did the last few races needing cortisone injections (IIRC) for the pain (which dull your edge) and he never really came back.
Webber had his bike accident after the 2008 season had finished.The 2008 season results show Vettel placed 8th with 35 points and Webber placed 11th with 21 points.
So was Webber 'thrashing' Vettel, prior to his accident?
thegreenhell said:
Maybe if he'd looked after himself better off track then he'd have done better on track.
there's good reason drivers have contracts that exclude them from doing all sorts of things. Hence why drivers injure themselves "playing tennis", or snowmobil races are won by a "gorilla".Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff