Sebastian Vettel

Sebastian Vettel

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glazbagun

11,706 posts

163 months

Wednesday 9th June
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Jasandjules said:
I have always liked Seb, even in his Red Bull days. Mainly because I loved the fact he could be in the lead two laps from the end, when the team are telling him to nurse the car home, then the radio call "Who has fastest lap?" and the reply was usually "Don't even think about it"... Then.......

I also remember (but can't now for the life of me remember the track) when he qualified on Pole having done one lap in Q1, Q2 and Q3. He just went out, did the fastest lap, went back to the garage.......
There were no points for it either, he just wanted it.

Schermerhorn

4,044 posts

155 months

Wednesday 9th June
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Was Baku 2017 ever proven as Vettel driving into the side of Lewis or was it more a case of Vettel percieving Lewis as brake testing him, going side by side next to him to give him the finger only to lose control of the car momentarily and go into the side of Lewis?

From what I gathered, Vettel didnt jolt into the side of Lewis in a deliberate way from the onboard I saw.

FeelingLucky

917 posts

130 months

Wednesday 9th June
quotequote all
Schermerhorn said:
Was Baku 2017 ever proven as Vettel driving into the side of Lewis or was it more a case of Vettel percieving Lewis as brake testing him, going side by side next to him to give him the finger only to lose control of the car momentarily and go into the side of Lewis?

From what I gathered, Vettel didnt jolt into the side of Lewis in a deliberate way from the onboard I saw.
You sure?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOI2It_W3No

HustleRussell

19,398 posts

126 months

Wednesday 9th June
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He definitely bashed wheels with Hamilton deliberately and got a dangerous driving penalty of a 10 second stop / go. A red mist moment, like his “fk off Charlie” message and numerous others.

thegreenhell

8,672 posts

185 months

Wednesday 9th June
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Muzzer79

4,844 posts

153 months

Wednesday 9th June
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kiseca said:
Siao said:
Ok, just for the sake of it, we do know about Vettel and Hamilton disobeying orders, but can you help with which orders did MSC, Alo and Senna ignore? Any examples? I honestly can't recall
Senna ignored his own suggestion that the two McLaren drivers didn't fight for position in the first lap at Imola, 1988 or 1989. Or to be precise, he obeyed it on the original start when he got ahead, but ignored it on the restart where Prost got ahead of him.

Basically, Senna said the drivers hold station on the first lap, Prost said OK, Prost got the better start, didn't defend into Tosa, Senna overtook him.

Schumacher was never in a position where he'd be ordered to move over for a team mate, from what I can recall. Unless it happened in year 1 with Piquet or something. From then on he gave the orders hehe

I can't think of any for Alonso, but he did overtake his team mate in the freaking pitlane which is about as audacious and ruthless a put-down of one's team mate that I've ever seen and leaves me in no doubt that if the opportunity ever came up, he'd ignore a multi-21 order if he was the "1" in that instruction.
I think we can classify Alonso's little stunt in the pits during qualifying for the 2007 Hungarian GP, whereby he refused to move out of the box to let Hamilton in so he could be serviced, as "ignoring team instructions"


Muzzer79

4,844 posts

153 months

Wednesday 9th June
quotequote all
Schermerhorn said:
Was Baku 2017 ever proven as Vettel driving into the side of Lewis or was it more a case of Vettel percieving Lewis as brake testing him, going side by side next to him to give him the finger only to lose control of the car momentarily and go into the side of Lewis?

From what I gathered, Vettel didnt jolt into the side of Lewis in a deliberate way from the onboard I saw.
rofl

That's like saying Tiger Woods lost control of his man-bits and fell over into various positions with various p0rn stars.......

ajprice

20,552 posts

162 months

Wednesday 9th June
quotequote all
Siao said:
Ok, just for the sake of it, we do know about Vettel and Hamilton disobeying orders, but can you help with which orders did MSC, Alo and Senna ignore? Any examples? I honestly can't recall
Damon Hill and Ralf Schumacher at Jordan? Wet race, Damon was leading, Ralf was P2 and faster. Damon got the 'Ralf is faster than you' message, and replied telling them to keep things as they are with him in P1, because Ralf overtaking in the wet would risk them both going out and losing the 1-2.

Is it disobeying orders when you reply with better orders that the team agree with? hehe

kiseca

9,073 posts

185 months

Wednesday 9th June
quotequote all
ajprice said:
Siao said:
Ok, just for the sake of it, we do know about Vettel and Hamilton disobeying orders, but can you help with which orders did MSC, Alo and Senna ignore? Any examples? I honestly can't recall
Damon Hill and Ralf Schumacher at Jordan? Wet race, Damon was leading, Ralf was P2 and faster. Damon got the 'Ralf is faster than you' message, and replied telling them to keep things as they are with him in P1, because Ralf overtaking in the wet would risk them both going out and losing the 1-2.

Is it disobeying orders when you reply with better orders that the team agree with? hehe
Ralf didn't agree with them, though he did follow them hehe

Damon also ignored the team once when they asked him to slow down and let Prost through. He said "Tell Prost I will race."

Schermerhorn

4,044 posts

155 months

Wednesday 9th June
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
Schermerhorn said:
Was Baku 2017 ever proven as Vettel driving into the side of Lewis or was it more a case of Vettel percieving Lewis as brake testing him, going side by side next to him to give him the finger only to lose control of the car momentarily and go into the side of Lewis?

From what I gathered, Vettel didnt jolt into the side of Lewis in a deliberate way from the onboard I saw.
rofl

That's like saying Tiger Woods lost control of his man-bits and fell over into various positions with various p0rn stars.......
Sounds like fun!

angrymoby

1,461 posts

144 months

Thursday
quotequote all
Schermerhorn said:
Was Baku 2017 ever proven as Vettel driving into the side of Lewis or was it more a case of Vettel percieving Lewis as brake testing him, going side by side next to him to give him the finger only to lose control of the car momentarily and go into the side of Lewis?

From what I gathered, Vettel didnt jolt into the side of Lewis in a deliberate way from the onboard I saw.
who would've thought that David Blunkett was Vettel fan ...let alone a PH poster

Siao

97 posts

6 months

Thursday
quotequote all
kiseca said:
thegreenhell said:
kiseca said:
Senna ignored his own suggestion that the two McLaren drivers didn't fight for position in the first lap at Imola, 1988 or 1989. Or to be precise, he obeyed it on the original start when he got ahead, but ignored it on the restart where Prost got ahead of him.

Basically, Senna said the drivers hold station on the first lap, Prost said OK, Prost got the better start, didn't defend into Tosa, Senna overtook him.

Schumacher was never in a position where he'd be ordered to move over for a team mate, from what I can recall. Unless it happened in year 1 with Piquet or something. From then on he gave the orders hehe

I can't think of any for Alonso, but he did overtake his team mate in the freaking pitlane which is about as audacious and ruthless a put-down of one's team mate that I've ever seen and leaves me in no doubt that if the opportunity ever came up, he'd ignore a multi-21 order if he was the "1" in that instruction.
Senna later argued that the second start was a new race, and therefore the previous agreement was no longer in effect.

Schumacher moved over for Irvine to win in Malaysia in '99, on his return after breaking his leg earlier in the season, when Irvine was in contention for the WDC.
He did indeed! However, Senna forgot to tell Prost that when he suggested the agreement. Besides, if there was any practical benefit to the agreement in the first start, the same practical benefit would apply to the second start. Ergo, Senna was just making excuses to justify his move... rather like Seb did after Multi-21!

Thanks for digging up the Schumacher one! thumbup I didn't remember that one at all.
The post I replied to mentioned drivers that have done and would defy orders (again I suppose).

Alonso and Schumacher racing hard is not really defying orders. And Senna broke a gentlemen's agreement (justified or not in his mind), not a team order. So frankly, none of these apply.

Siao

97 posts

6 months

Thursday
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Mr Tidy said:
Jasandjules said:
I have always liked Seb, even in his Red Bull days. Mainly because I loved the fact he could be in the lead two laps from the end, when the team are telling him to nurse the car home, then the radio call "Who has fastest lap?" and the reply was usually "Don't even think about it"... Then.......

I also remember (but can't now for the life of me remember the track) when he qualified on Pole having done one lap in Q1, Q2 and Q3. He just went out, did the fastest lap, went back to the garage.......

And he has a great (sarcastic) sense of humour and loves the UK.... He is one of the drivers I'd love to have dinner/drinks with and just chat...
I never liked him - another arrogant German who thought he was so special.

Well maybe justified when Red Bull were unbeatable but ferrari weren't impressed!

I'd much rather have dinner/drinks with the team-mate he took out of WC contention, Mark Webber.
It's exactly the opposite in my mind. Seb comes across like a really nice guy (not sure where the another arrogant German comes from, no need really).

Teddy Lop

5,145 posts

33 months

Thursday
quotequote all
angrymoby said:
Schermerhorn said:
Was Baku 2017 ever proven as Vettel driving into the side of Lewis or was it more a case of Vettel percieving Lewis as brake testing him, going side by side next to him to give him the finger only to lose control of the car momentarily and go into the side of Lewis?

From what I gathered, Vettel didnt jolt into the side of Lewis in a deliberate way from the onboard I saw.
who would've thought that David Blunkett was Vettel fan ...let alone a PH poster
laugh

The mental gymnastics ay. Should be in Tokyo!

Siao

97 posts

6 months

Thursday
quotequote all
ajprice said:
Siao said:
Ok, just for the sake of it, we do know about Vettel and Hamilton disobeying orders, but can you help with which orders did MSC, Alo and Senna ignore? Any examples? I honestly can't recall
Damon Hill and Ralf Schumacher at Jordan? Wet race, Damon was leading, Ralf was P2 and faster. Damon got the 'Ralf is faster than you' message, and replied telling them to keep things as they are with him in P1, because Ralf overtaking in the wet would risk them both going out and losing the 1-2.

Is it disobeying orders when you reply with better orders that the team agree with? hehe
I know the race and that's not what happened. Hill didn't get the "Ralf is faster than you", Ralf was faster behind him catching him up, to the tune of up to 5 sec or something per lap faster. Hill then asked the team for orders: "let me put something to you here and you better listen" or something like that... It was a thinly vailed insinuation that they'd crash, it was disgusting from Hill frankly. I get his point, but he could have let Ralf by, he was muuuuuch faster. Or he should have got the "Ralf is faster than you", but you see Ralf was leaving the team that year so they didn't really care much about him. I believe even MSC went around to Jordan, told him off and bought off the rest of Ralf's contract. The Schumachers were not happy that day.

But I was interested in the other three drivers, I don't think there are any examples (that I know of). Maybe the poster who wrote this had in mind the tough racing they did at times, rather than disobeying actual team orders.

Muzzer79

4,844 posts

153 months

Thursday
quotequote all
Siao said:
ajprice said:
Siao said:
Ok, just for the sake of it, we do know about Vettel and Hamilton disobeying orders, but can you help with which orders did MSC, Alo and Senna ignore? Any examples? I honestly can't recall
Damon Hill and Ralf Schumacher at Jordan? Wet race, Damon was leading, Ralf was P2 and faster. Damon got the 'Ralf is faster than you' message, and replied telling them to keep things as they are with him in P1, because Ralf overtaking in the wet would risk them both going out and losing the 1-2.

Is it disobeying orders when you reply with better orders that the team agree with? hehe
I know the race and that's not what happened. Hill didn't get the "Ralf is faster than you", Ralf was faster behind him catching him up, to the tune of up to 5 sec or something per lap faster. Hill then asked the team for orders: "let me put something to you here and you better listen" or something like that... It was a thinly vailed insinuation that they'd crash, it was disgusting from Hill frankly. I get his point, but he could have let Ralf by, he was muuuuuch faster. Or he should have got the "Ralf is faster than you", but you see Ralf was leaving the team that year so they didn't really care much about him. I believe even MSC went around to Jordan, told him off and bought off the rest of Ralf's contract. The Schumachers were not happy that day.

But I was interested in the other three drivers, I don't think there are any examples (that I know of). Maybe the poster who wrote this had in mind the tough racing they did at times, rather than disobeying actual team orders.
1. Don't be ridiculous: It's not "disgusting" from Hill. Quite the opposite - It's a mature racing driver's approach because a) he's in the lead and isn't about to give it up or fight for it unnecessarily and b) he wants the team to deliver a good result rather than both ending up in the barriers (which, incidentally, would have meant a 2nd GP win for Jean Alesi)

2. I've given you an example for Alonso - Qualifying at the 2007 Hungarian GP.

Teddy Lop

5,145 posts

33 months

Thursday
quotequote all
Siao said:
I know the race and that's not what happened. Hill didn't get the "Ralf is faster than you", Ralf was faster behind him catching him up, to the tune of up to 5 sec or something per lap faster. Hill then asked the team for orders: "let me put something to you here and you better listen" or something like that... It was a thinly vailed insinuation that they'd crash, it was disgusting from Hill frankly. I get his point, but he could have let Ralf by, he was muuuuuch faster. Or he should have got the "Ralf is faster than you", but you see Ralf was leaving the team that year so they didn't really care much about him. I believe even MSC went around to Jordan, told him off and bought off the rest of Ralf's contract. The Schumachers were not happy that day.

But I was interested in the other three drivers, I don't think there are any examples (that I know of). Maybe the poster who wrote this had in mind the tough racing they did at times, rather than disobeying actual team orders.
Damon was within his rights to fight Ralph for the lead, and his point that it might end badly for the team was fair given how many drivers had already crashed out of that race. Sure you can read threat, malice or calculation into it if you wish - and I wouldn't care to argue for Damon's unquestionable virtue - but the point was damn well valid... I just wish he'd been that shrewd earlier in his career.

Micheal spitting the dummy over it was just poetic.

Siao

97 posts

6 months

Thursday
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
Siao said:
ajprice said:
Siao said:
Ok, just for the sake of it, we do know about Vettel and Hamilton disobeying orders, but can you help with which orders did MSC, Alo and Senna ignore? Any examples? I honestly can't recall
Damon Hill and Ralf Schumacher at Jordan? Wet race, Damon was leading, Ralf was P2 and faster. Damon got the 'Ralf is faster than you' message, and replied telling them to keep things as they are with him in P1, because Ralf overtaking in the wet would risk them both going out and losing the 1-2.

Is it disobeying orders when you reply with better orders that the team agree with? hehe
I know the race and that's not what happened. Hill didn't get the "Ralf is faster than you", Ralf was faster behind him catching him up, to the tune of up to 5 sec or something per lap faster. Hill then asked the team for orders: "let me put something to you here and you better listen" or something like that... It was a thinly vailed insinuation that they'd crash, it was disgusting from Hill frankly. I get his point, but he could have let Ralf by, he was muuuuuch faster. Or he should have got the "Ralf is faster than you", but you see Ralf was leaving the team that year so they didn't really care much about him. I believe even MSC went around to Jordan, told him off and bought off the rest of Ralf's contract. The Schumachers were not happy that day.

But I was interested in the other three drivers, I don't think there are any examples (that I know of). Maybe the poster who wrote this had in mind the tough racing they did at times, rather than disobeying actual team orders.
1. Don't be ridiculous: It's not "disgusting" from Hill. Quite the opposite - It's a mature racing driver's approach because a) he's in the lead and isn't about to give it up or fight for it unnecessarily and b) he wants the team to deliver a good result rather than both ending up in the barriers (which, incidentally, would have meant a 2nd GP win for Jean Alesi)

2. I've given you an example for Alonso - Qualifying at the 2007 Hungarian GP.
1. Not ridiculous, thank you. Maybe disgusting was a strong word, but I didn't want to use a swear word... If he was so considerate about the team he should have let Ralf pass, 1-2 for the team still, no? He didn't HAVE to race his much faster team mate.

2. Team orders??? Hamilton ignored the TOs to let Alonso past in Q3. Did Alonso ignore a team order? Was Alonso ordered by the team? Don't mistake sh*tty behaviour (well, revenge) for disobeying team orders, that was not the case. What about Senna & MSC?

Siao

97 posts

6 months

Thursday
quotequote all
Teddy Lop said:
Siao said:
I know the race and that's not what happened. Hill didn't get the "Ralf is faster than you", Ralf was faster behind him catching him up, to the tune of up to 5 sec or something per lap faster. Hill then asked the team for orders: "let me put something to you here and you better listen" or something like that... It was a thinly vailed insinuation that they'd crash, it was disgusting from Hill frankly. I get his point, but he could have let Ralf by, he was muuuuuch faster. Or he should have got the "Ralf is faster than you", but you see Ralf was leaving the team that year so they didn't really care much about him. I believe even MSC went around to Jordan, told him off and bought off the rest of Ralf's contract. The Schumachers were not happy that day.

But I was interested in the other three drivers, I don't think there are any examples (that I know of). Maybe the poster who wrote this had in mind the tough racing they did at times, rather than disobeying actual team orders.
Damon was within his rights to fight Ralph for the lead, and his point that it might end badly for the team was fair given how many drivers had already crashed out of that race. Sure you can read threat, malice or calculation into it if you wish - and I wouldn't care to argue for Damon's unquestionable virtue - but the point was damn well valid... I just wish he'd been that shrewd earlier in his career.

Micheal spitting the dummy over it was just poetic.
But that's it, he didn't fight Ralf for the lead, he asked for a TO. Mentioning possibly crashing otherwise. Pretty sure team mates can switch positions safely if they want. Plus, when the other car is 5 seconds faster, you really shouldn't be racing them

paulguitar

11,479 posts

79 months

Thursday
quotequote all
Siao said:
But that's it, he didn't fight Ralf for the lead, he asked for a TO. Mentioning possibly crashing otherwise. Pretty sure team mates can switch positions safely if they want. Plus, when the other car is 5 seconds faster, you really shouldn't be racing them
It was the sensible thing to do, under the circumstances, and the result gave the Jordan team the greatest day they ever had. with all of the resulting publicity for sponsors, etc.

Do you have a source for RS being 5 seconds faster?