Sebastian Vettel

[kiseca]

PTF said:

kiseca said:

Alonso moved from a Renault with whom, if I recall correctly, he'd managed a single win fixed by his team mate, and was never a championship contender.

Apart from the championships Alonso won with Renault in 2005 and 2006?

I mean his second stint before he moved to Ferrari. Sorry, I thought that was obvious.

[slipstream 1985]

kiseca said:

PTF said:

kiseca said:

Alonso moved from a Renault with whom, if I recall correctly, he'd managed a single win fixed by his team mate, and was never a championship contender.

Apart from the championships Alonso won with Renault in 2005 and 2006?

I mean his second stint before he moved to Ferrari. Sorry, I thought that was obvious.

It was obvious but even though we are in a sub category forum where almost everyone is a pretty big fan people seem to like to point out pedantic points that you could safely assume.

[Frimley111R]

HTP99 said:

He's also never been great under pressure and never been the best overtaker either.

A lot was said about his ability to overtake but most of it was based on him getting into the RB and not having to overtake anyone for 4 years! But when he did have to he showed he can overtake as well as anyone.

I'm glad he's not great under pressure otherwise JB would never have won that incredible 2011 Canadian grand Prix.

[kiseca]

Frimley111R said:

HTP99 said:

He's also never been great under pressure and never been the best overtaker either.

A lot was said about his ability to overtake but most of it was based on him getting into the RB and not having to overtake anyone for 4 years! But when he did have to he showed he can overtake as well as anyone.

I'm glad he's not great under pressure otherwise JB would never have won that incredible 2011 Canadian grand Prix.

I don't think overtaking was ever his strong point. I remember one year he had to fight his way up through the field in what.. well I think it was a championship decider. And he made it, which was good, but he hit a couple of cars along the way and I think lost a wing at one point as well. So he did it, but was a fine line away from binning it instead. Then there was the time he crashed into Button while trying to overtake him.

I think his overtaking, on a good day, is the equal of anyone else on an average day...

[C Lee Farquar]

vaud said:

paua said:

Have you both forgotten Lauda? He ditched Ferrari after 2 WDC's (walked out before season's end!), retired from the sport altogether for a couple years. Then came out of retirement & won a further WDC at MCLaren.

He was before my time as an F1 follower so his history is less engrained in my memory. Good spot.

Fangio, before my time too

[TheDeuce]

kiseca said:

I'd say Ferrari's only real sustained period of success was the Brawn / Schumacher period. They did win three WDCs in the '70s and then had a draught until the 2000s. Before Lauda's win they had a long drought going back to Surtees's win, I think.

For drivers who have moved there and done well without breaking their careers, I'd add Berger, who went on to some success in a McLaren and later got his final win in a Benetton, and Arnoux who was fighting for the world championship in a Ferrari in 1983, Stefan Johansson who made an unsuccessful move to a WDC winning car.

Also both Alonso and Vettel improved their championship performances by moving to Ferrari, Alonso more obviously than Vettel.

Alonso moved from a Renault with whom, if I recall correctly, he'd managed a single win fixed by his team mate, and was never a championship contender. With Ferrari he was a strong contender in 2010 and I believe came second twice.

Vettel moved from a Red Bull he couldn't compete in (granted just one year after his dominant period) to a Ferrari that put him in contention for 2 WDCs. In that period Red Bull have won races but have never been a challenge for a championship.

I agree with most of that. Especially the part about their only sustained period of success, which as we mostly accept, was a little dubious. Question: Why is there this mystique and supposed draw to drive for Ferrari? I mean, Williams have been around forever too, and had great success in the past. Why is a chance at a Williams seat not celebrated in the same way? Obviously not in their very recent history - the cars have been comically bad, total turd in fact. But even when they remained something of a force, getting the Williams drive never attracted the hype of getting the Ferrari drive... Maybe for brief periods it did, but not for decades.

What exactly is it that makes Ferrari so special today?

[Mr_Thyroid]

Vettel has now racked up enough penalty points to be, potentially, one incident from an race ban. If memory serves he also reached this tally in 2017 - is he the worst driver for accruing penalty points?

[TheDeuce]

Mr_Thyroid said:

Vettel has now racked up enough penalty points to be, potentially, one incident from an race ban. If memory serves he also reached this tally in 2017 - is he the worst driver for accruing penalty points?

No no no...

He's the BEST driver at accruing penalty points

C'mon, he once drove in to Lewis by mistake and was so pissed off at himself he pulled up alongside and drove in to him again on purpose! No one is going to beat that level of form

Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 10th September 21:55

[Teddy Lop]

Mr_Thyroid said:

Vettel has now racked up enough penalty points to be, potentially, one incident from an race ban.

in theory. Unlikely to happen though isn't it?

[vdn]

TheDeuce said:

No no no...

He's the BEST driver at accruing penalty points

C'mon, he once drove in to Lewis by mistake and was so pissed off at himself he pulled up alongside and drove in to him again on purpose! No one is going to beat that level of form

Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 10th September 21:55

[HTP99]

vdn said:

TheDeuce said:

No no no...

He's the BEST driver at accruing penalty points

C'mon, he once drove in to Lewis by mistake and was so pissed off at himself he pulled up alongside and drove in to him again on purpose! No one is going to beat that level of form

Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 10th September 21:55

How he didn't get black flagged for that, I've no idea; intentionally ramming an opponent FFS, got away with the Charlie F rant too, which was a disgrace.

[ajprice]

Teddy Lop said:

Mr_Thyroid said:

Vettel has now racked up enough penalty points to be, potentially, one incident from an race ban.

in theory. Unlikely to happen though isn't it?

On the rolling 12 months for points, he's within 3 points of a ban until the end of the Japanese GP. 3 races to stack up 3 points, I wouldn't rule it out.

[Deesee]

Heres the current and all time penalty points list

https://f1statblog.co.uk/f1-penalty-points/

Can you guess who’s 1/2??

[Teddy Lop]

ajprice said:

Teddy Lop said:

Mr_Thyroid said:

Vettel has now racked up enough penalty points to be, potentially, one incident from an race ban.

in theory. Unlikely to happen though isn't it?

On the rolling 12 months for points, he's within 3 points of a ban until the end of the Japanese GP. 3 races to stack up 3 points, I wouldn't rule it out.

I've always seen the points as something of a gesture, a show of punishment TBH. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the stewards "just happened" to not give him points for an offence when said points would have him banned under totting up.

[ajprice]

Teddy Lop said:

I've always seen the points as something of a gesture, a show of punishment TBH. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the stewards "just happened" to not give him points for an offence when said points would have him banned under totting up.

Depends on the level of muppetry by him, anything like Monza again and he's out.

[Andy S15]

I have warmed to Seb over the years and truly take no pleasure in watching this current downturn, it makes me physically uncomfortable to watch these things happen.

However, when does it get to the point where instead of saying you don't win 4 WDC's without skill, to saying he was lucky to get 4 WDC's with his skill? Is it really that hard to accept that he just might have lucked into a good car, which suited his style, without much solid competition, and rarely had to do much overtaking? Is that situation really that hard to accept?

It's not a nice thing to think about, but the evidence sure is mounting. I hope he pulls himself together. For his sake, for Ferrari's sake, for F1's sake. I don't like watching this happen.

[vaud]

There is a very good article on Autosport (plus) by Edd Straw on Vettel.

[sparta6]

Andy S15 said:

I have warmed to Seb over the years and truly take no pleasure in watching this current downturn, it makes me physically uncomfortable to watch these things happen.

However, when does it get to the point where instead of saying you don't win 4 WDC's without skill, to saying he was lucky to get 4 WDC's with his skill? Is it really that hard to accept that he just might have lucked into a good car, which suited his style, without much solid competition, and rarely had to do much overtaking? Is that situation really that hard to accept?

It's not a nice thing to think about, but the evidence sure is mounting. I hope he pulls himself together. For his sake, for Ferrari's sake, for F1's sake. I don't like watching this happen.

I agree.

Seb was blindingly fast in that Red Bull, and Webber was a tough competitor.

He has a Ferrari that doesn't perfectly suit his driving style, and his performance has dropped off as a result.
This is not uncommon in modern F1.
Hamilton's performance dropped off in the non-perfect McLaren from 2009 - and there are very few drivers who can hustle a car not to their liking these days.
Alonso was one exception, and Max is the current exception.
Vettel delivered a great perfomance at Hockenheim and it would be good to see another before the season ends.

[OFORBES]

Whilst I wouldnt say I was a Ferrari or Seb Vettel fan, I like him as a person (from what I've seen in the media over his career). He has a wicked sense of humour, sharp wit and warming overall personality.

Whilst some of his mistakes under pressure as a multiple champion boggle my mind, his overall downturn in performance is very sad to see.

Will he be able to turn it around? Ferrari, whilst they might not be that happy with his performance, they still seem to be backing him. Would Seb be happy to play second driver/supporting to CLC next season if he continues to out perform him for the rest of 2019? I'm not so sure....

But I can see Seb staying (unless pushed) next year regardless. Ferrari obviously have the romantic idea of bringing Mick to the team, but 2020 will be too early for him I think

[oyster]

kiseca said:

Frimley111R said:

HTP99 said:

He's also never been great under pressure and never been the best overtaker either.

A lot was said about his ability to overtake but most of it was based on him getting into the RB and not having to overtake anyone for 4 years! But when he did have to he showed he can overtake as well as anyone.

I'm glad he's not great under pressure otherwise JB would never have won that incredible 2011 Canadian grand Prix.

I don't think overtaking was ever his strong point. I remember one year he had to fight his way up through the field in what.. well I think it was a championship decider. And he made it, which was good, but he hit a couple of cars along the way and I think lost a wing at one point as well. So he did it, but was a fine line away from binning it instead. Then there was the time he crashed into Button while trying to overtake him.

I think his overtaking, on a good day, is the equal of anyone else on an average day...

I remember him overtaking Alonso, on the outside, on the grass, at nearly 200mph round Curva Grande.

I guess all our memories are selective based on opinions of the driver involved!