Sebastian Vettel

Sebastian Vettel

Author
Discussion

paua

1,274 posts

88 months

Monday 9th September
quotequote all
Deesee said:
If we start questioning Prost (Whom is one of the greatest btw) then let’s find a shark to jump eh...
Personal opinion etc, Prost is my pick as best ever.
Fangio also left Ferrari with a WDC & went on to claim another ( at Maserati )

TheDeuce

2,797 posts

11 months

Monday 9th September
quotequote all
paua said:
vaud said:
TheDeuce said:
I'm stuck on those two as well. And Prost is a little bit of a stretch as you say, he achieved still - but not exactly 'better'.
I'm torn on that though. He came in, got the best car under him and delivered. Added a WDC and retired. Well calculated and no "hanging on" with a recognition that he was retiring at a peak.
Have you both forgotten Lauda? He ditched Ferrari after 2 WDC's (walked out before season's end!), retired from the sport altogether for a couple years. Then came out of retirement & won a further WDC at MCLaren.
There were other circumstances surrounding his decision to leave. And anyway, as I said initially, if the dodgy Shumi period is ignored then it's been a very long time since Ferrari had a sustained period of glory. And Niki was a very long time ago, at Ferrari. We can hardly rate the team or how keen an established and still developing driver might be to join them today, based upon how successful they were back when Niki was racing for them.

Like I said, we don't and cannot know what is truth, what is hype and what is simply down to their ability to prop up their 'legendary' status in F1. But it's a fact that the glory days haven't returned for a very long time now, an extremely long time if the Shumi years are taken as not entirely fair handed... Personally, I think that any driver who feels they are in their prime would probably not be overly keen to go to such a team. As viewers we see the prestige of Ferrari as it presented to us. The drivers and advisors see and feel what is probably closer to the truth, and the chances of doing well will surely swing their decisions, I suspect quite often away from Ferrari. We would never, ever hear of any of that - Ferrari can simply demand that an NDA is signed ahead of even a casual meeting to discuss 'whatever' comes up. With any driver they wish. We will only ever hear from the drivers that say yes to the seat, no matter how many say no. There may be rare exceptions to that, but overall - most of what is discussed and on the table, we will get no inkling of.

Red Bull are firmly in the ascendancy, they would probably have beaten Ferrari this year if Max hadn't spent the first half of the season battling solo. At some point, it becomes reasonable to question why promising and self confident drivers would seek the Ferrari seat vs Mercedes/Red Bull. Once again I will be careful to remove CLC from the equation, of course a rookie driver would accept a seat at any top team, with no hesitation.

Edited by TheDeuce on Monday 9th September 21:18


Edited by TheDeuce on Monday 9th September 21:20

Deesee

2,756 posts

28 months

Monday 9th September
quotequote all
paua said:
Deesee said:
If we start questioning Prost (Whom is one of the greatest btw) then let’s find a shark to jump eh...
Personal opinion etc, Prost is my pick as best ever.
Fangio also left Ferrari with a WDC & went on to claim another ( at Maserati )
Different times and much different WDC points at the time.

Prost for me is in the Clark/Stewart mould, a consummate professional.

vdn

6,653 posts

148 months

Monday 9th September
quotequote all
Hungrymc said:
vdn said:
He seems a nice chap but I’d rather see a hungry driver in that Ferrari seat.
Well, I’ll give it a go, but based on the other thread, I think we’d be better of sticking GOAT in it as his lines won’t be “wonky”
hehe

CoolHands

9,906 posts

140 months

Tuesday 10th September
quotequote all
I still rate him, and think he would come good if given the right car for his preferences.

37chevy

2,820 posts

101 months

Tuesday 10th September
quotequote all
CoolHands said:
I still rate him, and think he would come good if given the right car for his preferences.
As an experienced 4 time champion, shouldn’t he be able to adapt his driving style to suit the car he’s given?

vdn

6,653 posts

148 months

Tuesday 10th September
quotequote all
37chevy said:
CoolHands said:
I still rate him, and think he would come good if given the right car for his preferences.
As an experienced 4 time champion, shouldn’t he be able to adapt his driving style to suit the car he’s given?
Ideally, yes. But he won those seasons in a car that was perfect for him... it seems he’s never been the type of driver that can drive around an issue or adapt well, like an Alonso or a Hamilton.

HTP99

14,851 posts

85 months

Tuesday 10th September
quotequote all
vdn said:
37chevy said:
CoolHands said:
I still rate him, and think he would come good if given the right car for his preferences.
As an experienced 4 time champion, shouldn’t he be able to adapt his driving style to suit the car he’s given?
Ideally, yes. But he won those seasons in a car that was perfect for him... it seems he’s never been the type of driver that can drive around an issue or adapt well, like an Alonso or a Hamilton.
He's also never been great under pressure and never been the best overtaker either.

glazbagun

9,855 posts

142 months

Tuesday 10th September
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
The one thing I'm very confident of is that Lewis won't want to cross over to find out!! Mercedes also don't need/want Vettel. The most likely shift if he continues to perform and grow could be CLC to Mercedes in a couple of years - which would not only bring Mercedes a good driver, but as a bonus remove the same good driver from Ferrari. Or, by the same token, Max. I personally doubt the old guard will be doing any top-team hopping though.
I would LOVE to see CLC win Monza on his way to becoming WDC for the first time... In a Mercedes. laugh

Derek Smith

33,987 posts

193 months

Tuesday 10th September
quotequote all
I don't think I'm imagining this, but wasn't there a battle between Verstappen and Vettel on track this year where Vettel came out on top? I remember thinking that he was 'back'.

I'm with the majority; the car doesn't suit his driving style. However, I think it is a requirement of a great driver to be able to get the best out of any car. I remember a roll bar coming loose on a great driver's car and within two laps he was back up to speed. (I won't say how long ago that was.)

If he continues to make the same errors in the car. That's not good.


kiseca

7,560 posts

164 months

Tuesday 10th September
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
paua said:
vaud said:
TheDeuce said:
I'm stuck on those two as well. And Prost is a little bit of a stretch as you say, he achieved still - but not exactly 'better'.
I'm torn on that though. He came in, got the best car under him and delivered. Added a WDC and retired. Well calculated and no "hanging on" with a recognition that he was retiring at a peak.
Have you both forgotten Lauda? He ditched Ferrari after 2 WDC's (walked out before season's end!), retired from the sport altogether for a couple years. Then came out of retirement & won a further WDC at MCLaren.
There were other circumstances surrounding his decision to leave. And anyway, as I said initially, if the dodgy Shumi period is ignored then it's been a very long time since Ferrari had a sustained period of glory. And Niki was a very long time ago, at Ferrari. We can hardly rate the team or how keen an established and still developing driver might be to join them today, based upon how successful they were back when Niki was racing for them.

Like I said, we don't and cannot know what is truth, what is hype and what is simply down to their ability to prop up their 'legendary' status in F1. But it's a fact that the glory days haven't returned for a very long time now, an extremely long time if the Shumi years are taken as not entirely fair handed... Personally, I think that any driver who feels they are in their prime would probably not be overly keen to go to such a team. As viewers we see the prestige of Ferrari as it presented to us. The drivers and advisors see and feel what is probably closer to the truth, and the chances of doing well will surely swing their decisions, I suspect quite often away from Ferrari. We would never, ever hear of any of that - Ferrari can simply demand that an NDA is signed ahead of even a casual meeting to discuss 'whatever' comes up. With any driver they wish. We will only ever hear from the drivers that say yes to the seat, no matter how many say no. There may be rare exceptions to that, but overall - most of what is discussed and on the table, we will get no inkling of.

Red Bull are firmly in the ascendancy, they would probably have beaten Ferrari this year if Max hadn't spent the first half of the season battling solo. At some point, it becomes reasonable to question why promising and self confident drivers would seek the Ferrari seat vs Mercedes/Red Bull. Once again I will be careful to remove CLC from the equation, of course a rookie driver would accept a seat at any top team, with no hesitation.

Edited by TheDeuce on Monday 9th September 21:18


Edited by TheDeuce on Monday 9th September 21:20
I'd say Ferrari's only real sustained period of success was the Brawn / Schumacher period. They did win three WDCs in the '70s and then had a draught until the 2000s. Before Lauda's win they had a long drought going back to Surtees's win, I think.

For drivers who have moved there and done well without breaking their careers, I'd add Berger, who went on to some success in a McLaren and later got his final win in a Benetton, and Arnoux who was fighting for the world championship in a Ferrari in 1983, Stefan Johansson who made an unsuccessful move to a WDC winning car.

Also both Alonso and Vettel improved their championship performances by moving to Ferrari, Alonso more obviously than Vettel.

Alonso moved from a Renault with whom, if I recall correctly, he'd managed a single win fixed by his team mate, and was never a championship contender. With Ferrari he was a strong contender in 2010 and I believe came second twice.

Vettel moved from a Red Bull he couldn't compete in (granted just one year after his dominant period) to a Ferrari that put him in contention for 2 WDCs. In that period Red Bull have won races but have never been a challenge for a championship.

PTF

3,437 posts

169 months

Tuesday 10th September
quotequote all
kiseca said:
Alonso moved from a Renault with whom, if I recall correctly, he'd managed a single win fixed by his team mate, and was never a championship contender.
Apart from the championships Alonso won with Renault in 2005 and 2006?

Munter

28,805 posts

186 months

Tuesday 10th September
quotequote all
HTP99 said:
vdn said:
37chevy said:
CoolHands said:
I still rate him, and think he would come good if given the right car for his preferences.
As an experienced 4 time champion, shouldn’t he be able to adapt his driving style to suit the car he’s given?
Ideally, yes. But he won those seasons in a car that was perfect for him... it seems he’s never been the type of driver that can drive around an issue or adapt well, like an Alonso or a Hamilton.
He's also never been great under pressure and never been the best overtaker either.
As you say. He's always been a bit flakey under pressure. 2009 Australia getting a 50,000 fine for crashing with Kubica. Crashing into Webber in turkey 2010. Then there's Canada 2011 spin letting Button past.

He's good when the equipment is far ahead of the rest of the field and he's just putting in lap times. Get him close to others or playing catchup...it's pot luck how it turns out. I think this is why I tend to forget he's 4 times champ.

I don't recall him having races where you think "blimey he pulled that out of nowhere". While Alonso, Schumacher, Lewis my brain says they could/can work with a slightly inferior car and pull out a win if needs be.

kiseca

7,560 posts

164 months

Tuesday 10th September
quotequote all
PTF said:
kiseca said:
Alonso moved from a Renault with whom, if I recall correctly, he'd managed a single win fixed by his team mate, and was never a championship contender.
Apart from the championships Alonso won with Renault in 2005 and 2006?
I mean his second stint before he moved to Ferrari. Sorry, I thought that was obvious.

slipstream 1985

6,535 posts

124 months

Tuesday 10th September
quotequote all
kiseca said:
PTF said:
kiseca said:
Alonso moved from a Renault with whom, if I recall correctly, he'd managed a single win fixed by his team mate, and was never a championship contender.
Apart from the championships Alonso won with Renault in 2005 and 2006?
I mean his second stint before he moved to Ferrari. Sorry, I thought that was obvious.
It was obvious but even though we are in a sub category forum where almost everyone is a pretty big fan people seem to like to point out pedantic points that you could safely assume.

Frimley111R

9,970 posts

179 months

Tuesday 10th September
quotequote all
HTP99 said:
He's also never been great under pressure and never been the best overtaker either.
A lot was said about his ability to overtake but most of it was based on him getting into the RB and not having to overtake anyone for 4 years! But when he did have to he showed he can overtake as well as anyone.

I'm glad he's not great under pressure otherwise JB would never have won that incredible 2011 Canadian grand Prix. hehe

kiseca

7,560 posts

164 months

Tuesday 10th September
quotequote all
Frimley111R said:
HTP99 said:
He's also never been great under pressure and never been the best overtaker either.
A lot was said about his ability to overtake but most of it was based on him getting into the RB and not having to overtake anyone for 4 years! But when he did have to he showed he can overtake as well as anyone.

I'm glad he's not great under pressure otherwise JB would never have won that incredible 2011 Canadian grand Prix. hehe
I don't think overtaking was ever his strong point. I remember one year he had to fight his way up through the field in what.. well I think it was a championship decider. And he made it, which was good, but he hit a couple of cars along the way and I think lost a wing at one point as well. So he did it, but was a fine line away from binning it instead. Then there was the time he crashed into Button while trying to overtake him.

I think his overtaking, on a good day, is the equal of anyone else on an average day...

C Lee Farquar

2,506 posts

161 months

Tuesday 10th September
quotequote all
vaud said:
paua said:
Have you both forgotten Lauda? He ditched Ferrari after 2 WDC's (walked out before season's end!), retired from the sport altogether for a couple years. Then came out of retirement & won a further WDC at MCLaren.
He was before my time as an F1 follower so his history is less engrained in my memory. Good spot.
Fangio, before my time too

TheDeuce

2,797 posts

11 months

Tuesday 10th September
quotequote all
kiseca said:
I'd say Ferrari's only real sustained period of success was the Brawn / Schumacher period. They did win three WDCs in the '70s and then had a draught until the 2000s. Before Lauda's win they had a long drought going back to Surtees's win, I think.

For drivers who have moved there and done well without breaking their careers, I'd add Berger, who went on to some success in a McLaren and later got his final win in a Benetton, and Arnoux who was fighting for the world championship in a Ferrari in 1983, Stefan Johansson who made an unsuccessful move to a WDC winning car.

Also both Alonso and Vettel improved their championship performances by moving to Ferrari, Alonso more obviously than Vettel.

Alonso moved from a Renault with whom, if I recall correctly, he'd managed a single win fixed by his team mate, and was never a championship contender. With Ferrari he was a strong contender in 2010 and I believe came second twice.

Vettel moved from a Red Bull he couldn't compete in (granted just one year after his dominant period) to a Ferrari that put him in contention for 2 WDCs. In that period Red Bull have won races but have never been a challenge for a championship.
I agree with most of that. Especially the part about their only sustained period of success, which as we mostly accept, was a little dubious. Question: Why is there this mystique and supposed draw to drive for Ferrari? I mean, Williams have been around forever too, and had great success in the past. Why is a chance at a Williams seat not celebrated in the same way? Obviously not in their very recent history - the cars have been comically bad, total turd in fact. But even when they remained something of a force, getting the Williams drive never attracted the hype of getting the Ferrari drive... Maybe for brief periods it did, but not for decades.

What exactly is it that makes Ferrari so special today?

Mr_Thyroid

1,741 posts

172 months

Tuesday 10th September
quotequote all
Vettel has now racked up enough penalty points to be, potentially, one incident from an race ban. If memory serves he also reached this tally in 2017 - is he the worst driver for accruing penalty points?