Max Verstappen

[Derek Smith]

HTP99 said:

Derek Smith said:

Hamilton was a bit wild in his younger days in F1. I miss the old LH a bit. I see no reason why Verstappen can't make it, although he's not developing fast enough at the moment. He's great to watch, thrilling in fact.

Thing is Verstappen will be entering his sixth season next year and he still has that wildness and immaturity about him, it should have been ironed out a couple of seasons ago, he is in real danger of being overtaken by the likes of Leclerc, Norris, Russell etc who are young and fast but also mature and missing out on possible titles.

You also get the sense that with him and his dad in the background he is kind of difficult to manage, if Red Bull are unable to regularly fight with Mercedes or Ferrari in the next couple of seasons I can't see any other top team wanting him if he wanted to move on as a) he doesn't seem to listen, b) him and his dad give off an air of being difficult and c) there are younger fast drivers on the grid who already show great promise and all the correct traits of a champion.

With no intent to patronise, I reckon they are all good points. The only one I'd add is that it will generate a bit of interest of itself in the seasons to come.

His father seems to give off an air of menace. He doesn't look as if he's laughed in years.

[Exige77]

There’s a difference between passion and thuggishness.

He needs to make that transition and faster.

[Teddy Lop]

HTP99 said:

Derek Smith said:

Hamilton was a bit wild in his younger days in F1. I miss the old LH a bit. I see no reason why Verstappen can't make it, although he's not developing fast enough at the moment. He's great to watch, thrilling in fact.

Thing is Verstappen will be entering his sixth season next year and he still has that wildness and immaturity about him, it should have been ironed out a couple of seasons ago, he is in real danger of being overtaken by the likes of Leclerc, Norris, Russell etc who are young and fast but also mature and missing out on possible titles.

You also get the sense that with him and his dad in the background he is kind of difficult to manage, if Red Bull are unable to regularly fight with Mercedes or Ferrari in the next couple of seasons I can't see any other top team wanting him if he wanted to move on as a) he doesn't seem to listen, b) him and his dad give off an air of being difficult and c) there are younger fast drivers on the grid who already show great promise and all the correct traits of a champion.

after many seasons of "promising but very flawed" he started the season so well and we thought he'd sorted himself out and stepped up to the team leader role - we were wondering if he'd made some substantial changes in approach e.g. Performance shrink etc - but lapsed quite noticeably for a couple of races around mid season.

And yeah, that whole Essex wideboy thug of a dad with his weird relationship with the team boss... I doubt any top team would be as accommodating, with an unprecedented embarrassment of riches in the new generation there are no drivers that are essential for any team IMO, they all need to be upon their toes.

Overall he has looked the goods this year, but tin-foil-hat me is wondering about gasleys remarkable performance recovery once back in TR, and the full facts around Danny's decision to quit. Worth bearing in mind that just about everyone painted as a "great", generally hand their team-mates their ass from the off - max took several years to out-point Danny and many would say that season was only by dint of Danny's exceptional unreliability costing him high points finish after high points finish - something max didn't suffer nearly half as much.

[DeltonaS]

TheDeuce said:

HustleRussell said:

It’s pointless debating with DeltonaS, he is incapable of balance.

Hamilton wins championships when he has the tools to do so.

I hope we get to see whether Max converts so effectively. He’s proven that he can do everything else so far.

Let's face facts. With a better car max could challenge Lewis and potentially win a WDC

Does anyone really think he could win 6 though? Probably 7...

Lewis is a freak happening in the sport. Part freak because he has the talents and perfect balance of driver traits to win. Part freak because his path led him to the best car - albeit he earned that path.

Max is a raw talent and is unbelievably good. But he's not the complete and perfect package. The balance is slightly off. That could perhaps change one day, but until it does... It's pointless comparing him to Lewis. Max is a maybe. Lewis is confirmed.

That's the point isn't it: lack of balance.

The actual freak is the F1 championship itself.

Because since the hybrid engine formula, for 6 years in a row now, the title fight is between the drivers of just 1 team: Mercedes.

In all these years Mercedes dominance has never been challenged. This season alone 15 of the 20 GP's went to Mercedes.

And in all these years Hamilton had to fight two lesser drivers, Rosberg and Bottas. Good drivers, but they lack the skill of others like Alonso, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen, Leclerc.etc.

And let's look at Hamilton WDC standings in the years in between his WDC's when Vettel was the second comming:
2013: 4th
2012: 4th
2011: 5th
2010: 4th
2009: 5th

And all these years in a Mercedes, Hamilton is just very lucky he started and stayed in a team which made the upmost of what became the hybrid engine formula.

[Deesee]

DeltonaS said:

Good drivers, but they lack the skill of others like Alonso, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen, Leclerc.etc.

Fernando and Lewis have taken a Championship campaign (non WDC winning) to the last race, 3 times each & brought down multiple championships.

Max, Dani Ric & CLC have never taken a campaign past the summer break.

[DeltonaS]

Deesee said:

DeltonaS said:

Good drivers, but they lack the skill of others like Alonso, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen, Leclerc.etc.

Fernando and Lewis have taken a Championship campaign (non WDC winning) to the last race, 3 times each & brought down multiple championships.

Max, Dani Ric & CLC have never taken a campaign past the summer break.

Fernando, Lewis and Seb had championship winning cars.

Max, Dani Ric & CLC only had GP winning cars so far.

[Deesee]

DeltonaS said:

Deesee said:

DeltonaS said:

Good drivers, but they lack the skill of others like Alonso, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen, Leclerc.etc.

Fernando and Lewis have taken a Championship campaign (non WDC winning) to the last race, 3 times each & brought down multiple championships.

Max, Dani Ric & CLC have never taken a campaign past the summer break.

Fernando, Lewis and Seb had championship winning cars.

Max, Dani Ric & CLC only had GP winning cars so far.

The Ferrari and McLaren in the early 10’s were not championship winning however the drivers took the WDC fight to the last race, both twice..

[Teddy Lop]

Deesee said:

DeltonaS said:

Good drivers, but they lack the skill of others like Alonso, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen, Leclerc.etc.

Fernando and Lewis have taken a Championship campaign (non WDC winning) to the last race, 3 times each & brought down multiple championships.

Max, Dani Ric & CLC have never taken a campaign past the summer break.

wheras bottas has, 3 times!

Means nothing...

[Deesee]

Teddy Lop said:

Deesee said:

DeltonaS said:

Good drivers, but they lack the skill of others like Alonso, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen, Leclerc.etc.

Fernando and Lewis have taken a Championship campaign (non WDC winning) to the last race, 3 times each & brought down multiple championships.

Max, Dani Ric & CLC have never taken a campaign past the summer break.

wheras bottas has, 3 times!

Means nothing...

Bottas has never taken a campaign to the last race, Lewis has had them wrapped up by USA/Mexico?!

[Teddy Lop]

Deesee said:

Teddy Lop said:

Deesee said:

DeltonaS said:

Good drivers, but they lack the skill of others like Alonso, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen, Leclerc.etc.

Fernando and Lewis have taken a Championship campaign (non WDC winning) to the last race, 3 times each & brought down multiple championships.

Max, Dani Ric & CLC have never taken a campaign past the summer break.

wheras bottas has, 3 times!

Means nothing...

Bottas has never taken a campaign to the last race, Lewis has had them wrapped up by USA/Mexico?!

your next sentence concerning the summer break though, all about the car really, perhaps in Lecs case a better run team could have kept him in it longer

[Deesee]

Teddy Lop said:

your next sentence concerning the summer break though, all about the car really, perhaps in Lecs case a better run team could have kept him in it longer

Nothing to do with the various driver errors either though? & a few Quali errors (even though the 7 poles were mightily impressive)..

The Ferrari was fast enough this year to challenge, both drivers underperformed the potential of the car.

[DeltonaS]

Deesee said:

Teddy Lop said:

your next sentence concerning the summer break though, all about the car really, perhaps in Lecs case a better run team could have kept him in it longer

Nothing to do with the various driver errors either though? & a few Quali errors (even though the 7 poles were mightily impressive)..

The Ferrari was fast enough this year to challenge, both drivers underperformed the potential of the car.

LeClerc is a rookie driver in a car which was on most tracks this season the 2nd best car, on some tracks even 3rd best car.

[Mr_Thyroid]

Derek Smith said:

I see no reason why Verstappen can't make it, although he's not developing fast enough at the moment. He's great to watch, thrilling in fact.

I think Max has changed faster than peoples opinion of him. This year, what mistakes has he made?

1. He went for a gap into La Source that was always likely to close - at worst 60:40 his fault.
2. He made a stupid decision not to lift in Mexico qualifying - an emotional error, not a driving error.
3. He spun in Germany.

Compare this to any other driver and only Hamilton has a similarly clean record - Crashed and spun in Germany, crashed in Brazil.

[DeltonaS]

HTP99 said:

Thing is Verstappen will be entering his sixth season next year and he still has that wildness and immaturity about him, it should have been ironed out a couple of seasons ago, he is in real danger of being overtaken by the likes of Leclerc, Norris, Russell etc who are young and fast but also mature and missing out on possible titles.

You also get the sense that with him and his dad in the background he is kind of difficult to manage, if Red Bull are unable to regularly fight with Mercedes or Ferrari in the next couple of seasons I can't see any other top team wanting him if he wanted to move on as a) he doesn't seem to listen, b) him and his dad give off an air of being difficult and c) there are younger fast drivers on the grid who already show great promise and all the correct traits of a champion.

If you're trying to make things up, fine, but do it in a way that it's looks and sounds believable.

[Deesee]

DeltonaS said:

LeClerc is a rookie driver in a car which was on most tracks this season the 2nd best car, on some tracks even 3rd best car.

From the top 3 cars, every car had a pecking order on certain tracks, even the Merc was not even the best 2 in in terms of constructors at some tracks.

For Charl, 7 poles and 2 wins converted off of is not great numbers..

However, 10 podiums is a decent return, same as Max (& red bull) and one more than Seb, still not WDC challenge material.

Oh and CLC has 2 seasons under his belt. Not quite a rookie he is 40+ weekends.

You don’t always have to have the quickest car to challenge until the end of the season, you do have to manage your power unit elements and make the most of your track position to elevate yourself into challenging for a WDC.

[Mr_Thyroid]

Don't forget how many points Ferrari cost Leclerc.
- a few with team orders in the first few races
- potentially lost the win in Singapore through Ferraris bad strategy
- looked quick enough to challenge for the win in Monaco but started at the back because of a team error
- arguably a less than optimal strategy in Austria cost him the win
- Russia, I can't remember exactly what happened but I'm sure he lost out because of the wranglings going on there.

[Deesee]

Mr_Thyroid said:

Don't forget how many points Ferrari cost Leclerc.
- a few with team orders in the first few races
- potentially lost the win in Singapore through Ferraris bad strategy
- looked quick enough to challenge for the win in Monaco but started at the back because of a team error
- arguably a less than optimal strategy in Austria cost him the win
- Russia, I can't remember exactly what happened but I'm sure he lost out because of the wranglings going on there.

Team orders in the first races, justified IMO.

Ferrari only one/two this season, Singapore, I’d say that’s the optimum strategy.

Monaco, well...??!??

Austria, got bossed by Max

Russia, after losing pole (p1) into turn ‘two’ on lap one to Vettel (started 3rd) CLC moaned and moaned, until Merc had secured a 1/2 (race finish), from a 2/5 start..

[TheDeuce]

Mr_Thyroid said:

Don't forget how many points Ferrari cost Leclerc.
- a few with team orders in the first few races
- potentially lost the win in Singapore through Ferraris bad strategy
- looked quick enough to challenge for the win in Monaco but started at the back because of a team error
- arguably a less than optimal strategy in Austria cost him the win
- Russia, I can't remember exactly what happened but I'm sure he lost out because of the wranglings going on there.

Also let down by his own team mate when Vettel drove in to him

On balance I think Leclerc has done very well in the Ferrari - and even with errors on the teams behalf and some driver favouritism... he still beat his team mate. In doing so, particularly at Ferrari, he has had a very good first season in a top car. Very good.

It also says quite a lot about how disorganised and poorly calculated Ferrari are these days - normally in the red team the no1 driver is all but guaranteed to beat the other. It's safe to say they got more than they bargained for when they signed Leclerc

[sparta6]

DeltonaS said:

That's the point isn't it: lack of balance.

The actual freak is the F1 championship itself.

Because since the hybrid engine formula, for 6 years in a row now, the title fight is between the drivers of just 1 team: Mercedes.

In all these years Mercedes dominance has never been challenged. This season alone 15 of the 20 GP's went to Mercedes.

And in all these years Hamilton had to fight two lesser drivers, Rosberg and Bottas. Good drivers, but they lack the skill of others like Alonso, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen, Leclerc.etc.

And let's look at Hamilton WDC standings in the years in between his WDC's when Vettel was the second comming:
2013: 4th
2012: 4th
2011: 5th
2010: 4th
2009: 5th

And all these years in a Mercedes, Hamilton is just very lucky he started and stayed in a team which made the upmost of what became the hybrid engine formula.

F1 was certainly more exciting when different teams were tight at the front.
Eddie was also pretty racy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaPQRzXkHvk

[Exige77]

TheDeuce said:

Mr_Thyroid said:

Don't forget how many points Ferrari cost Leclerc.
- a few with team orders in the first few races
- potentially lost the win in Singapore through Ferraris bad strategy
- looked quick enough to challenge for the win in Monaco but started at the back because of a team error
- arguably a less than optimal strategy in Austria cost him the win
- Russia, I can't remember exactly what happened but I'm sure he lost out because of the wranglings going on there.

Also let down by his own team mate when Vettel drove in to him

On balance I think Leclerc has done very well in the Ferrari - and even with errors on the teams behalf and some driver favouritism... he still beat his team mate. In doing so, particularly at Ferrari, he has had a very good first season in a top car. Very good.

It also says quite a lot about how disorganised and poorly calculated Ferrari are these days - normally in the red team the no1 driver is all but guaranteed to beat the other. It's safe to say they got more than they bargained for when they signed Leclerc

It’s only his Moaning on the radio that let him down.

Blah blah blah but we’ll discuss after the race.

Other than that pretty good.