The Official 2017 British Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**
Discussion
Vaud said:
So what do we think for target quali time given the predominance of medium-high speed corners?
High 1:26?
I think the Merc could do a 1:26.5-1:26.8 on the Softs. I'd imagine the Super Softs might have to be managed a little bit over a quali lap, so I'd say low 1:26s or maybe even high 1:25s should be possible. That puts the average speed at around 245 km/h. It would be the fastest lap (in terms of average speed) since 1990 at Silverstone.High 1:26?
I'm less sure of where the competition might come from. I have a hunch that Merc have at least half a second on the nearest competitor in terms of qualifying pace. Ferrari and RBR should be very close. Very keen to see how Ferrari perform here.
Race pace in the dry should be right with the V10 cars in terms of average speed, and in terms of lap time in the range of the 2010 cars.
Merc are predicting apex speed at Copse to be around 290 km/h, 35 km/h faster than last year. Qualifying should be a treat!
Crafty_ said:
jsf said:
Cold oil makes hydraulics stiffer, not softer.
It wont affect ride height as that is set by the base torsion bar settings, it will affect transient response.
Force India engineer disagrees.It wont affect ride height as that is set by the base torsion bar settings, it will affect transient response.
translated article said:
Five teams have no more classic shock absorbers and stabilizers on the rear axle, but hydraulic actuators, with which the up and down movements of the car and its rolling behavior are controlled. They are usually hidden in the gearbox housing and are therefore invisible to the outside world. The teams will be Mercedes, Force India Red Bull, Toro Rosso and McLaren.
Samples and references from the competition showed that all or almost all of the teams with hydraulic suspensions preheated the oil in the hydraulic actuators. Also under Parc fermé conditions on Sunday afternoon in the garage. This changes the properties of the oil. The purpose of the exercise was either to manipulate the chassis characteristics for the race or to bring the ground clearance to the desired level at the start of the race. Ground clearance dependent on oil temperature
Force India was one of the teams that had preheated its hydraulic elements in the garage with hot air to bring the hydraulic oil to the temperature it would reach later in driving. Technician Andy Green does not deny the practice: "Our goal was to keep the temperature of the hydraulic oil and therefore the ground clearance constant. With cold oil, the vehicle is lower than when it is hot. Because the oil is warmed up during driving, you have to precisely calculate how you can adjust the ground clearance in the stand, so that the desired ground clearance is achieved later."
The FIA ??explained in Baku to all concerned teams that external preheating of chassis components is prohibited. By "external" is meant heating systems, which are connected to landing gear components. This violates the Parce fermé rules. It is a deliberate intervention in the chassis setup. It's like installing other dampers or stabilizers. After the GP Azerbaijan, the technicians were once again emphasized that preheating is no longer tolerated. Green groaned: "Without preheating, the drivers have to ride hard in the laps to the starting place so that the hydraulic oil heats up quickly. Only then can they feel if the balance of the car really fits."
Has the trickery come to an end? Not quite. There are artifices that can not be forbidden. Mercedes is supposed to have placed the hydraulic actuators so cleverly in the gearbox that they heat up almost "accidentally". It is assumed that gear oil conduits pass or pass through the actuators. The heat radiation thus influences the viscosity of the hydraulic oil. Preheating would be easy because each team can gear the gearbox in the booth, as often and as long as you want. The transmission oil and the surrounding environment are also heated. No handling against accidental heating
An FIA man confirmed to automotor and sport that such a practice would not be punishable: "We can not prescribe anyone where he builds his suspension components and what is in their environment. Theoretically, one could also alienate an exhaust manifold for heating. We can only intervene when the warm-up happens in an unnatural way."
Nothing can be seen from the outside. But the trick is to change the ground clearance and the hardness of the damping.
The competition was badly sounded after Mercedes got his tire problems under control, and after the break in Monte Carlo spoke of "new tools", which should help to overcome the tire riddle. Since then the fluctuations between training and race and the individual tire types are not so great. Anyone who can change the characteristics of the hydraulic dampers and stabilizers between training and racing in a clever way would always use the tires perfectly, depending on the task. The conspiracy theorists believe that the chassis is trimmed for the quick round in the training on hard, in the race rather directionally soft. To protect the tires.
There is only one way to make these Grauzone out of the world. Hydraulic suspensions are forbidden. That would go for 2018 only with unanimity. But 2019 is already on the agenda.
[\quote]
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/vorzei...
He doesn't disagree with me at all.Samples and references from the competition showed that all or almost all of the teams with hydraulic suspensions preheated the oil in the hydraulic actuators. Also under Parc fermé conditions on Sunday afternoon in the garage. This changes the properties of the oil. The purpose of the exercise was either to manipulate the chassis characteristics for the race or to bring the ground clearance to the desired level at the start of the race. Ground clearance dependent on oil temperature
Force India was one of the teams that had preheated its hydraulic elements in the garage with hot air to bring the hydraulic oil to the temperature it would reach later in driving. Technician Andy Green does not deny the practice: "Our goal was to keep the temperature of the hydraulic oil and therefore the ground clearance constant. With cold oil, the vehicle is lower than when it is hot. Because the oil is warmed up during driving, you have to precisely calculate how you can adjust the ground clearance in the stand, so that the desired ground clearance is achieved later."
The FIA ??explained in Baku to all concerned teams that external preheating of chassis components is prohibited. By "external" is meant heating systems, which are connected to landing gear components. This violates the Parce fermé rules. It is a deliberate intervention in the chassis setup. It's like installing other dampers or stabilizers. After the GP Azerbaijan, the technicians were once again emphasized that preheating is no longer tolerated. Green groaned: "Without preheating, the drivers have to ride hard in the laps to the starting place so that the hydraulic oil heats up quickly. Only then can they feel if the balance of the car really fits."
Has the trickery come to an end? Not quite. There are artifices that can not be forbidden. Mercedes is supposed to have placed the hydraulic actuators so cleverly in the gearbox that they heat up almost "accidentally". It is assumed that gear oil conduits pass or pass through the actuators. The heat radiation thus influences the viscosity of the hydraulic oil. Preheating would be easy because each team can gear the gearbox in the booth, as often and as long as you want. The transmission oil and the surrounding environment are also heated. No handling against accidental heating
An FIA man confirmed to automotor and sport that such a practice would not be punishable: "We can not prescribe anyone where he builds his suspension components and what is in their environment. Theoretically, one could also alienate an exhaust manifold for heating. We can only intervene when the warm-up happens in an unnatural way."
Nothing can be seen from the outside. But the trick is to change the ground clearance and the hardness of the damping.
The competition was badly sounded after Mercedes got his tire problems under control, and after the break in Monte Carlo spoke of "new tools", which should help to overcome the tire riddle. Since then the fluctuations between training and race and the individual tire types are not so great. Anyone who can change the characteristics of the hydraulic dampers and stabilizers between training and racing in a clever way would always use the tires perfectly, depending on the task. The conspiracy theorists believe that the chassis is trimmed for the quick round in the training on hard, in the race rather directionally soft. To protect the tires.
There is only one way to make these Grauzone out of the world. Hydraulic suspensions are forbidden. That would go for 2018 only with unanimity. But 2019 is already on the agenda.
[\quote]
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/vorzei...
The ride height change is a transient effect of the fluid flow rates, they calculate the rate of flow based on viscosity, preheating the oil gives them a stable viscosity so they can design the valves accurately to achieve the chassis jacking based on throughput flow.
A cold oil is more viscous, cold oil gives stiffer damper valving and slower flow through actuators.
Even on the 80's F1 cars I run we use these transient flow characteristics to alter ride height by having rebound damping high enough to overcome the spring rate, so as the car runs on circuit and has bump, roll and pitch loads applied it jacks the car down and holds it down to make the aero work better in ground effect and give a stable mechanical platform. As the oil heats up in the dampers you get less jacking effect because it flows through the valves easier. If you don't cool the dampers adequately the oil gets so thin the dampers stop working.
jsf said:
Crafty_ said:
jsf said:
Cold oil makes hydraulics stiffer, not softer.
It wont affect ride height as that is set by the base torsion bar settings, it will affect transient response.
Force India engineer disagrees.It wont affect ride height as that is set by the base torsion bar settings, it will affect transient response.
translated article said:
Five teams have no more classic shock absorbers and stabilizers on the rear axle, but hydraulic actuators, with which the up and down movements of the car and its rolling behavior are controlled. They are usually hidden in the gearbox housing and are therefore invisible to the outside world. The teams will be Mercedes, Force India Red Bull, Toro Rosso and McLaren.
Samples and references from the competition showed that all or almost all of the teams with hydraulic suspensions preheated the oil in the hydraulic actuators. Also under Parc fermé conditions on Sunday afternoon in the garage. This changes the properties of the oil. The purpose of the exercise was either to manipulate the chassis characteristics for the race or to bring the ground clearance to the desired level at the start of the race. Ground clearance dependent on oil temperature
Force India was one of the teams that had preheated its hydraulic elements in the garage with hot air to bring the hydraulic oil to the temperature it would reach later in driving. Technician Andy Green does not deny the practice: "Our goal was to keep the temperature of the hydraulic oil and therefore the ground clearance constant. With cold oil, the vehicle is lower than when it is hot. Because the oil is warmed up during driving, you have to precisely calculate how you can adjust the ground clearance in the stand, so that the desired ground clearance is achieved later."
The FIA ??explained in Baku to all concerned teams that external preheating of chassis components is prohibited. By "external" is meant heating systems, which are connected to landing gear components. This violates the Parce fermé rules. It is a deliberate intervention in the chassis setup. It's like installing other dampers or stabilizers. After the GP Azerbaijan, the technicians were once again emphasized that preheating is no longer tolerated. Green groaned: "Without preheating, the drivers have to ride hard in the laps to the starting place so that the hydraulic oil heats up quickly. Only then can they feel if the balance of the car really fits."
Has the trickery come to an end? Not quite. There are artifices that can not be forbidden. Mercedes is supposed to have placed the hydraulic actuators so cleverly in the gearbox that they heat up almost "accidentally". It is assumed that gear oil conduits pass or pass through the actuators. The heat radiation thus influences the viscosity of the hydraulic oil. Preheating would be easy because each team can gear the gearbox in the booth, as often and as long as you want. The transmission oil and the surrounding environment are also heated. No handling against accidental heating
An FIA man confirmed to automotor and sport that such a practice would not be punishable: "We can not prescribe anyone where he builds his suspension components and what is in their environment. Theoretically, one could also alienate an exhaust manifold for heating. We can only intervene when the warm-up happens in an unnatural way."
Nothing can be seen from the outside. But the trick is to change the ground clearance and the hardness of the damping.
The competition was badly sounded after Mercedes got his tire problems under control, and after the break in Monte Carlo spoke of "new tools", which should help to overcome the tire riddle. Since then the fluctuations between training and race and the individual tire types are not so great. Anyone who can change the characteristics of the hydraulic dampers and stabilizers between training and racing in a clever way would always use the tires perfectly, depending on the task. The conspiracy theorists believe that the chassis is trimmed for the quick round in the training on hard, in the race rather directionally soft. To protect the tires.
There is only one way to make these Grauzone out of the world. Hydraulic suspensions are forbidden. That would go for 2018 only with unanimity. But 2019 is already on the agenda.
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/vorzeizen-fahrwerk-illegal-technik-trick-12222370.htmlSamples and references from the competition showed that all or almost all of the teams with hydraulic suspensions preheated the oil in the hydraulic actuators. Also under Parc fermé conditions on Sunday afternoon in the garage. This changes the properties of the oil. The purpose of the exercise was either to manipulate the chassis characteristics for the race or to bring the ground clearance to the desired level at the start of the race. Ground clearance dependent on oil temperature
Force India was one of the teams that had preheated its hydraulic elements in the garage with hot air to bring the hydraulic oil to the temperature it would reach later in driving. Technician Andy Green does not deny the practice: "Our goal was to keep the temperature of the hydraulic oil and therefore the ground clearance constant. With cold oil, the vehicle is lower than when it is hot. Because the oil is warmed up during driving, you have to precisely calculate how you can adjust the ground clearance in the stand, so that the desired ground clearance is achieved later."
The FIA ??explained in Baku to all concerned teams that external preheating of chassis components is prohibited. By "external" is meant heating systems, which are connected to landing gear components. This violates the Parce fermé rules. It is a deliberate intervention in the chassis setup. It's like installing other dampers or stabilizers. After the GP Azerbaijan, the technicians were once again emphasized that preheating is no longer tolerated. Green groaned: "Without preheating, the drivers have to ride hard in the laps to the starting place so that the hydraulic oil heats up quickly. Only then can they feel if the balance of the car really fits."
Has the trickery come to an end? Not quite. There are artifices that can not be forbidden. Mercedes is supposed to have placed the hydraulic actuators so cleverly in the gearbox that they heat up almost "accidentally". It is assumed that gear oil conduits pass or pass through the actuators. The heat radiation thus influences the viscosity of the hydraulic oil. Preheating would be easy because each team can gear the gearbox in the booth, as often and as long as you want. The transmission oil and the surrounding environment are also heated. No handling against accidental heating
An FIA man confirmed to automotor and sport that such a practice would not be punishable: "We can not prescribe anyone where he builds his suspension components and what is in their environment. Theoretically, one could also alienate an exhaust manifold for heating. We can only intervene when the warm-up happens in an unnatural way."
Nothing can be seen from the outside. But the trick is to change the ground clearance and the hardness of the damping.
The competition was badly sounded after Mercedes got his tire problems under control, and after the break in Monte Carlo spoke of "new tools", which should help to overcome the tire riddle. Since then the fluctuations between training and race and the individual tire types are not so great. Anyone who can change the characteristics of the hydraulic dampers and stabilizers between training and racing in a clever way would always use the tires perfectly, depending on the task. The conspiracy theorists believe that the chassis is trimmed for the quick round in the training on hard, in the race rather directionally soft. To protect the tires.
There is only one way to make these Grauzone out of the world. Hydraulic suspensions are forbidden. That would go for 2018 only with unanimity. But 2019 is already on the agenda.
The ride height change is a transient effect of the fluid flow rates, they calculate the rate of flow based on viscosity, preheating the oil gives them a stable viscosity so they can design the valves accurately to achieve the chassis jacking based on throughput flow.
A cold oil is more viscous, cold oil gives stiffer damper valving and slower flow through actuators.
Even on the 80's F1 cars I run we use these transient flow characteristics to alter ride height by having rebound damping high enough to overcome the spring rate, so as the car runs on circuit and has bump, roll and pitch loads applied it jacks the car down and holds it down to make the aero work better in ground effect and give a stable mechanical platform. As the oil heats up in the dampers you get less jacking effect because it flows through the valves easier. If you don't cool the dampers adequately the oil gets so thin the dampers stop working.
l354uge said:
That's really made me laugh.The Torpedo comment was hilarious.
I have been watching the Channel 4 coverage of free practice 2. There was some discussion of the fact that Silverstone is one of the breezier tracks that F1 visits, and the fact that this year's cars are likely to be unsettled in some corners as crosswinds catch the fins on the engine covers.
Could someone remind me why these fins have reappeared this season, please? Is it mandated in the new rules, is it a loophole in the new rules, or is it something else?
Thanks in advance!
Could someone remind me why these fins have reappeared this season, please? Is it mandated in the new rules, is it a loophole in the new rules, or is it something else?
Thanks in advance!
Europa1 said:
Could someone remind me why these fins have reappeared this season, please? Is it mandated in the new rules, is it a loophole in the new rules, or is it something else?
It's a loophole that the FIA were informed of before the season started, and were warned that it would be exploited, and decided to proceed with anyway. Same goes for the coathanger wing. budgie smuggler said:
jsf said:
Crafty_ said:
jsf said:
Cold oil makes hydraulics stiffer, not softer.
It wont affect ride height as that is set by the base torsion bar settings, it will affect transient response.
Force India engineer disagrees.It wont affect ride height as that is set by the base torsion bar settings, it will affect transient response.
translated article said:
Five teams have no more classic shock absorbers and stabilizers on the rear axle, but hydraulic actuators, with which the up and down movements of the car and its rolling behavior are controlled. They are usually hidden in the gearbox housing and are therefore invisible to the outside world. The teams will be Mercedes, Force India Red Bull, Toro Rosso and McLaren.
Samples and references from the competition showed that all or almost all of the teams with hydraulic suspensions preheated the oil in the hydraulic actuators. Also under Parc fermé conditions on Sunday afternoon in the garage. This changes the properties of the oil. The purpose of the exercise was either to manipulate the chassis characteristics for the race or to bring the ground clearance to the desired level at the start of the race. Ground clearance dependent on oil temperature
Force India was one of the teams that had preheated its hydraulic elements in the garage with hot air to bring the hydraulic oil to the temperature it would reach later in driving. Technician Andy Green does not deny the practice: "Our goal was to keep the temperature of the hydraulic oil and therefore the ground clearance constant. With cold oil, the vehicle is lower than when it is hot. Because the oil is warmed up during driving, you have to precisely calculate how you can adjust the ground clearance in the stand, so that the desired ground clearance is achieved later."
The FIA ??explained in Baku to all concerned teams that external preheating of chassis components is prohibited. By "external" is meant heating systems, which are connected to landing gear components. This violates the Parce fermé rules. It is a deliberate intervention in the chassis setup. It's like installing other dampers or stabilizers. After the GP Azerbaijan, the technicians were once again emphasized that preheating is no longer tolerated. Green groaned: "Without preheating, the drivers have to ride hard in the laps to the starting place so that the hydraulic oil heats up quickly. Only then can they feel if the balance of the car really fits."
Has the trickery come to an end? Not quite. There are artifices that can not be forbidden. Mercedes is supposed to have placed the hydraulic actuators so cleverly in the gearbox that they heat up almost "accidentally". It is assumed that gear oil conduits pass or pass through the actuators. The heat radiation thus influences the viscosity of the hydraulic oil. Preheating would be easy because each team can gear the gearbox in the booth, as often and as long as you want. The transmission oil and the surrounding environment are also heated. No handling against accidental heating
An FIA man confirmed to automotor and sport that such a practice would not be punishable: "We can not prescribe anyone where he builds his suspension components and what is in their environment. Theoretically, one could also alienate an exhaust manifold for heating. We can only intervene when the warm-up happens in an unnatural way."
Nothing can be seen from the outside. But the trick is to change the ground clearance and the hardness of the damping.
The competition was badly sounded after Mercedes got his tire problems under control, and after the break in Monte Carlo spoke of "new tools", which should help to overcome the tire riddle. Since then the fluctuations between training and race and the individual tire types are not so great. Anyone who can change the characteristics of the hydraulic dampers and stabilizers between training and racing in a clever way would always use the tires perfectly, depending on the task. The conspiracy theorists believe that the chassis is trimmed for the quick round in the training on hard, in the race rather directionally soft. To protect the tires.
There is only one way to make these Grauzone out of the world. Hydraulic suspensions are forbidden. That would go for 2018 only with unanimity. But 2019 is already on the agenda.
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/vorzeizen-fahrwerk-illegal-technik-trick-12222370.htmlSamples and references from the competition showed that all or almost all of the teams with hydraulic suspensions preheated the oil in the hydraulic actuators. Also under Parc fermé conditions on Sunday afternoon in the garage. This changes the properties of the oil. The purpose of the exercise was either to manipulate the chassis characteristics for the race or to bring the ground clearance to the desired level at the start of the race. Ground clearance dependent on oil temperature
Force India was one of the teams that had preheated its hydraulic elements in the garage with hot air to bring the hydraulic oil to the temperature it would reach later in driving. Technician Andy Green does not deny the practice: "Our goal was to keep the temperature of the hydraulic oil and therefore the ground clearance constant. With cold oil, the vehicle is lower than when it is hot. Because the oil is warmed up during driving, you have to precisely calculate how you can adjust the ground clearance in the stand, so that the desired ground clearance is achieved later."
The FIA ??explained in Baku to all concerned teams that external preheating of chassis components is prohibited. By "external" is meant heating systems, which are connected to landing gear components. This violates the Parce fermé rules. It is a deliberate intervention in the chassis setup. It's like installing other dampers or stabilizers. After the GP Azerbaijan, the technicians were once again emphasized that preheating is no longer tolerated. Green groaned: "Without preheating, the drivers have to ride hard in the laps to the starting place so that the hydraulic oil heats up quickly. Only then can they feel if the balance of the car really fits."
Has the trickery come to an end? Not quite. There are artifices that can not be forbidden. Mercedes is supposed to have placed the hydraulic actuators so cleverly in the gearbox that they heat up almost "accidentally". It is assumed that gear oil conduits pass or pass through the actuators. The heat radiation thus influences the viscosity of the hydraulic oil. Preheating would be easy because each team can gear the gearbox in the booth, as often and as long as you want. The transmission oil and the surrounding environment are also heated. No handling against accidental heating
An FIA man confirmed to automotor and sport that such a practice would not be punishable: "We can not prescribe anyone where he builds his suspension components and what is in their environment. Theoretically, one could also alienate an exhaust manifold for heating. We can only intervene when the warm-up happens in an unnatural way."
Nothing can be seen from the outside. But the trick is to change the ground clearance and the hardness of the damping.
The competition was badly sounded after Mercedes got his tire problems under control, and after the break in Monte Carlo spoke of "new tools", which should help to overcome the tire riddle. Since then the fluctuations between training and race and the individual tire types are not so great. Anyone who can change the characteristics of the hydraulic dampers and stabilizers between training and racing in a clever way would always use the tires perfectly, depending on the task. The conspiracy theorists believe that the chassis is trimmed for the quick round in the training on hard, in the race rather directionally soft. To protect the tires.
There is only one way to make these Grauzone out of the world. Hydraulic suspensions are forbidden. That would go for 2018 only with unanimity. But 2019 is already on the agenda.
The ride height change is a transient effect of the fluid flow rates, they calculate the rate of flow based on viscosity, preheating the oil gives them a stable viscosity so they can design the valves accurately to achieve the chassis jacking based on throughput flow.
A cold oil is more viscous, cold oil gives stiffer damper valving and slower flow through actuators.
Even on the 80's F1 cars I run we use these transient flow characteristics to alter ride height by having rebound damping high enough to overcome the spring rate, so as the car runs on circuit and has bump, roll and pitch loads applied it jacks the car down and holds it down to make the aero work better in ground effect and give a stable mechanical platform. As the oil heats up in the dampers you get less jacking effect because it flows through the valves easier. If you don't cool the dampers adequately the oil gets so thin the dampers stop working.
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