The Official 2017 Singapore Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**

[HustleRussell]

I wonder if Vettel's PU is alright, can't imagine modern F1 PUs take kindly to travelling backwards for any amount of time particularly while rapidly haemorrhaging coolant.

[Dunit]

HustleRussell said:

Derek Smith said:

Dunit said:

I see that Mercedes fitted old engines for the weekend, Lewis had his Spanish gp engine and Valteri used the Monaco unit.
Wonder was there any damage to Sebs engine or the gearbox on Kimis?

Interesting although, perhaps, not surprising. It means they saw this race as a throwaway one. If an engine was going to go, this was the place for it to happen. No wonder Wolff et al looked so keyed up when LH went into the lead. They could not have been pleased to see Ricc behind and promising to push.

Perhaps Bottas was nursing his engine, short changing and stuff, thinking that if LH's did blow it would put him in the frame again - maybe under instruction to do so. Mind you, with his Friday and Saturday times that's probably way off beam. I wonder what they would have felt if LH's engine blew five laps from the end.

In all probability, the various pace cars must have helped. No lean running to shorten engine life. Even luckier Hamilton?

Thanks for that.

(Sorry to change the subject.)

Mercedes are in a pretty comfortable position with component use so I don't think they'd have re-used an old engine if they felt it had an increased risk of failure. More likely, IMO, the layout of Singapore, the % of full throttle over a lap, the negligible laptime benefit of a more powerful newer / later spec engine, the impact of the heat and humidity on fuelling / outright power... I'd guess they bung in a used engine and save their new unit for more power critical circuits. Japan? USA? Mexico?

It really helped them being a wet race as well!,Also they have the advantage of being able to use the older units in P1&P2 and installing the later ones for Qually.
Plus all their units are subject to the old oil burn rules.
I would be surprised if Kimis gearbox survived the accident undamaged with the angle the driveshaft was hanging at?

[NRS]

Derek Smith said:

It's not over, though, not yet.

Chicken counting might be the worst tactic for Merc. For a bloke like LH, settling for second seems to be an anathema and I think could cause him to not so much switch off as make errors. He'll go for wins, so could be fun.

It is disappointing to be in this situation I know. Seven races to go and LH wins the one that everyone (including me) suggested he'd struggle to finish above fourth, putting him 28 points in the lead. He's a lucky bugger, although I think he'd have finished third and maybe in front of Vettel even if Kimi and Max had had average starts, so perhaps he made some of his own luck.

I know the odds are against Vettel getting close to Hamilton, but then, are they any worse than Hamilton's odds of winning in Singapore?

To be honest Vettel got lucky in the race before though, when you consider the (lack of) pace of the Ferrari. If there was not a lot of penalties moving fast cars to the back of the grid he'd have lost more points there. The RBs "should" have finished ahead of him for sure. And that was nothing to do with anyone's driving. Vettel's "bad luck" here was mostly self-inflicted.

Hamilton has not won in Brazil yet, has he?

[Derek Smith]

HustleRussell said:

Derek Smith said:

The Ferrari is a quality car and better than the Merc, even in Hamilton's hands, on at least one of the remaining races.

Which, out of interest? Mexico? Abu Dhabi?

I deliberately wasn't specific as if you listen to the TV commentary and read the various reports, the 'best' races for Ferrari vary. So rather than look a complete idiot, I thought I'd hope that no one would ask. So thanks for that.

As another poster has pointed out, Brazil isn't LH's best circuit, despite him winning the WDC there by an overtake on the last corner of the last lap, but most suggest he'll be strong there.

Mexico is the circuit most commentators seem to think will be iffy for Merc so I'll go with them.

Abu Dhabi is also difficult, they say, but I'm not so sure.

With the resurgence of Ferrari, I don't think there's a cast iron win for the Mercs in any of them. The low downforce circuits will remove the threat of the RBs (except at the start) so LH will, at worst, get third, and probably at least second.

I think the championship is at an interesting stage. Much will depend on the next couple of races. If Vettel can steal a win or two, even if LH gets a high points finish, with the two iffy circuits being in the last three races, it might well set it all up for a blinder.

Let's be optimistic. At worst, there's the fun of the midfield battles. Also there's the possibility of the two RBs being on the same circuit, on the same lap, within sight of one another when the team's got little to lose. I'm really irritated that they've been kept apart for various reasons so far.

[Dr Z]

Derek Smith said:

I know the odds are against Vettel getting close to Hamilton, but then, are they any worse than Hamilton's odds of winning in Singapore?

The speed of the Ferrari was remarkable. Vettel was on the edge, and a fraction over it, on his qually lap I know, but it was still a blinder, showing the car has the potential to be a winner in the races left.

I reckon that there will be a few surprises unfolding in the next half dozen races. For support, I'll bring in a number of previous seasons.

The fat lady has not even taken a deep breath so let's not get too negative.

Just yet.

The Ferrari is a quality car and better than the Merc, even in Hamilton's hands, on at least one of the remaining races. The RB is up there as well so LH will struggle in one race.

There's still a fight left.

Fair points, and I agree Vettel can still fight, but it became a lot less realistic. Except one or two races I don't see Hamilton finishing any less than 2nd. So, Hamilton can allow Vettel to win four of the remaining six races to only get even on points. This scenario is highly unlikely. The other aspect is Kimi tends to go missing in qualifying when the car is there, making mistakes when it counts. Then gets pretty racey at the starts which generally has been a hindrance than a help to Vettel.

Depending on how the tyres stack up, I think Ferrari have a good chance in Suzuka and Abu Dhabi. Pirelli will be up to their usual tricks in Malaysia so they'll struggle there. However, if Ferrari introduce developments on the engine front, they could well challenge for pole positions in the rest of the tracks.

Mexico is a low average speed track, and should suit Ferrari. However, the altitude would mean it's hard on the engines but equally there will be less concerns about aero efficiency. Form book is pretty open at this track and we can only judge once they put the cars on track.

Taking the average of performance leaps if this year's cars over last year, these are the predicted fastest qualifying times for the rest of this year:

Track	Merc	Ferrari	RBR
Malaysia	1:30.0	1:30.0	1:30.8
Japan	1:27:7	1:27.3	1:28.4
USA	1:32.2	1:32.0	1:32.8
Mexico	1:26.5	1.26.6	1:27.0
Brazil	1:18.5	1:18.6	1:19.2
Abu Dhabi	1:36.0	1:36.0	1:36.7

You can see it will be close, but I'd say Mercedes still holds the edge. I'll just put a caveat here; these are just estimates and other factors could affect if/whether the cars hit these target lap times or under/over perform. The strengths/weaknesses of the different car/driver package will also determine this.

RBR don't seem to be in the picture much, except at the start of the race (or in the pit windows) if one or the other title contenders gets stuck behind them.

[kybo]

I just feel sorry for Alonso - what a reward for such a fantastic start!!

S

[Derek Smith]

Dr Z said:

Fair points, and I agree Vettel can still fight, but it became a lot less realistic. Except one or two races I don't see Hamilton finishing any less than 2nd. So, Hamilton can allow Vettel to win four of the remaining six races to only get even on points. This scenario is highly unlikely. The other aspect is Kimi tends to go missing in qualifying when the car is there, making mistakes when it counts. Then gets pretty racey at the starts which generally has been a hindrance than a help to Vettel.

Depending on how the tyres stack up, I think Ferrari have a good chance in Suzuka and Abu Dhabi. Pirelli will be up to their usual tricks in Malaysia so they'll struggle there. However, if Ferrari introduce developments on the engine front, they could well challenge for pole positions in the rest of the tracks.

Mexico is a low average speed track, and should suit Ferrari. However, the altitude would mean it's hard on the engines but equally there will be less concerns about aero efficiency. Form book is pretty open at this track and we can only judge once they put the cars on track.

Taking the average of performance leaps if this year's cars over last year, these are the predicted fastest qualifying times for the rest of this year:

Track	Merc	Ferrari	RBR
Malaysia	1:30.0	1:30.0	1:30.8
Japan	1:27:7	1:27.3	1:28.4
USA	1:32.2	1:32.0	1:32.8
Mexico	1:26.5	1.26.6	1:27.0
Brazil	1:18.5	1:18.6	1:19.2
Abu Dhabi	1:36.0	1:36.0	1:36.7

You can see it will be close, but I'd say Mercedes still holds the edge. I'll just put a caveat here; these are just estimates and other factors could affect if/whether the cars hit these target lap times or under/over perform. The strengths/weaknesses of the different car/driver package will also determine this.

RBR don't seem to be in the picture much, except at the start of the race (or in the pit windows) if one or the other title contenders gets stuck behind them.

Thanks for that. Interesting stats.

[Hungrymc]

Byker28i said:

If, as claimed, vettels car was damaged and he spun on his coolant, then the chop on hamilton could be construed that he knew his race was over and he was trying to take out hamilton.
I don't think it was until after he hit the wall. I think he chopped hamilton having seen him get a good start, saw him pick a different line and lost his back end trying to get the power down to aggressively seeing hamilton coming.

Ahh, now I think that "chop" was 100% fair. Seb was following the racing line to the outside curb on exit. If he and Lewis had came together after the apex of T1, that would have been Lewis's fault.

There was also some very bright liquid spewing from the back of Sebs car on the exit of T1 (I thought it was sparks at first and was surprised he still had drive).

[SmoothCriminal]

Something I noticed was that Vettel blatently knew he did wrong at the start.

Because every other time he perceives it as someone else's fault hes straight on the radio screaming, shouting like a baby and swearing.

This time not a peep out of him.

[anonymous-user]

SmoothCriminal said:

Something I noticed was that Vettel blatently knew he did wrong at the start.

Because every other time he perceives it as someone else's fault hes straight on the radio screaming, shouting like a baby and swearing.

This time not a peep out of him.

So after all the arguing, different camera angles etc on this thread, I think you might have just hit the nail on the head

[LDN]

Grahamdub said:

SmoothCriminal said:

Something I noticed was that Vettel blatently knew he did wrong at the start.

Because every other time he perceives it as someone else's fault hes straight on the radio screaming, shouting like a baby and swearing.

This time not a peep out of him.

So after all the arguing, different camera angles etc on this thread, I think you might have just hit the nail on the head

HMMMM; good point... unless his ranting was so blue that they couldn't play any of it.

[bobbo89]

SmoothCriminal said:

This time not a peep out of him.

He was on the radio, telling the pit he'd lost it and hit the wall, then two'd and fro'd about turning the engine off which after doing so, he then apologised to the team.

[swisstoni]

Dr Z said:

Derek Smith said:

I know the odds are against Vettel getting close to Hamilton, but then, are they any worse than Hamilton's odds of winning in Singapore?

The speed of the Ferrari was remarkable. Vettel was on the edge, and a fraction over it, on his qually lap I know, but it was still a blinder, showing the car has the potential to be a winner in the races left.

I reckon that there will be a few surprises unfolding in the next half dozen races. For support, I'll bring in a number of previous seasons.

The fat lady has not even taken a deep breath so let's not get too negative.

Just yet.

The Ferrari is a quality car and better than the Merc, even in Hamilton's hands, on at least one of the remaining races. The RB is up there as well so LH will struggle in one race.

There's still a fight left.

Fair points, and I agree Vettel can still fight, but it became a lot less realistic. Except one or two races I don't see Hamilton finishing any less than 2nd. So, Hamilton can allow Vettel to win four of the remaining six races to only get even on points. This scenario is highly unlikely. The other aspect is Kimi tends to go missing in qualifying when the car is there, making mistakes when it counts. Then gets pretty racey at the starts which generally has been a hindrance than a help to Vettel.

Depending on how the tyres stack up, I think Ferrari have a good chance in Suzuka and Abu Dhabi. Pirelli will be up to their usual tricks in Malaysia so they'll struggle there. However, if Ferrari introduce developments on the engine front, they could well challenge for pole positions in the rest of the tracks.

Mexico is a low average speed track, and should suit Ferrari. However, the altitude would mean it's hard on the engines but equally there will be less concerns about aero efficiency. Form book is pretty open at this track and we can only judge once they put the cars on track.

Taking the average of performance leaps if this year's cars over last year, these are the predicted fastest qualifying times for the rest of this year:

Track	Merc	Ferrari	RBR
Malaysia	1:30.0	1:30.0	1:30.8
Japan	1:27:7	1:27.3	1:28.4
USA	1:32.2	1:32.0	1:32.8
Mexico	1:26.5	1.26.6	1:27.0
Brazil	1:18.5	1:18.6	1:19.2
Abu Dhabi	1:36.0	1:36.0	1:36.7

You can see it will be close, but I'd say Mercedes still holds the edge. I'll just put a caveat here; these are just estimates and other factors could affect if/whether the cars hit these target lap times or under/over perform. The strengths/weaknesses of the different car/driver package will also determine this.

RBR don't seem to be in the picture much, except at the start of the race (or in the pit windows) if one or the other title contenders gets stuck behind them.

So Hamilton is almost there is he?
If Vettel wins and Hamilton DNFs next time out there's 3 points in it again FFS.
This scenario is no less far fetched than what happened last Sunday.

[bobbo89]

swisstoni said:

So Hamilton is almost there is he?
If Vettel wins and Hamilton DNFs next time out there's 3 points in it again FFS.
This scenario is no less far fetched than what happened last Sunday.

Malaysia next

[Sa Calobra]

bobbo89 said:

swisstoni said:

So Hamilton is almost there is he?
If Vettel wins and Hamilton DNFs next time out there's 3 points in it again FFS.
This scenario is no less far fetched than what happened last Sunday.

Malaysia next

I've got a line and a word for you

Still I rise and hammertime

[anonymous-user]

Dunit said:

I see that Mercedes fitted old engines for the weekend, Lewis had his Spanish gp engine and Valteri used the Monaco unit.
Wonder was there any damage to Sebs engine or the gearbox on Kimis?

They swap them about to maximise the performance over the full season, an engine that ran in the first two races could be used in the last race if they worked out that would maximise the whole season performance of the available 4.

[slipstream 1985]

Sa Calobra said:

bobbo89 said:

swisstoni said:

So Hamilton is almost there is he?
If Vettel wins and Hamilton DNFs next time out there's 3 points in it again FFS.
This scenario is no less far fetched than what happened last Sunday.

Malaysia next

I've got a line and a word for you

Still I rise and hammertime

so do i.

"poop time"

[PDP76]

With regard to posters commenting on Abu Dhabi. I'm going to say it's a Lewis track.
I sat in the marina grandstand last year opposite the hotel with the multitude of missing led lights lol.
Watching Lh on his fast runs and in the race, nobody could replicate how he could sling shot into the turn by the south stand ( after the straight before entering the hotel area complex)
Quite a few drivers tried to replicate it, inc nico, in the qualifying sessions. They just couldn't do it. He put a good proportion of the car up on the kerb to the right and then just slings it in with power. Really good to watch.
Both Nico and Max had "moments" trying it in qualifying.
Can't afford it this year :-( gutted

[anonymous-user]

If I was going to the last race this year, I'd want tickets to the McLaren post race party. Can you imagine how wild that piss up is going to be! (and I've been to some mad nights post event with the F1/WRC teams over the years)

[Dr Z]

swisstoni said:

So Hamilton is almost there is he?
If Vettel wins and Hamilton DNFs next time out there's 3 points in it again FFS.
This scenario is no less far fetched than what happened last Sunday.

It doesn't quite work like that. There's an equal chance that Vettel might DNF again, with Hamilton winning.

The respective "luck" for Hamilton & Rosberg evened out over their time at Mercedes together. But the frequency with which this "luck" occurred over this time varied, which meant one or the other driver were disadvantaged at some given point during the years they fought for the title which negatively impacted on either drivers' title campaigns in those years.

There is no reason to expect luck to even out over a year. Of course, it would be great if this year turned out like 2008, even if Hamilton wins it in the end. Funnily enough, both Ferraris DNF'd at Singapore that year, and with only 3 more races to go after that.