The Official 2017 US Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**
Discussion
E34-3.2 said:
Ves should have let Kimi pass him again and tried on the last corner again. The stewards will not have been able to claim that he gain an advantage.
Ves should call himself lucky on that one. Ham gave back his place at Spa in 2008 but was still penalised 25sec...not 5.
the ol' 'failing to comply with a rule that doesn't exist yet' ...otherwise known as 'Moseley's rule'Ves should call himself lucky on that one. Ham gave back his place at Spa in 2008 but was still penalised 25sec...not 5.
As for current rules, i think they're fine as they are ...going off track so you can overtake a competitor is a pretty black & white case of 'gaining an unfair advantage' ...the problem for Max was he just didn't have enough time/track to give the place back (or more likely be told to give it back)
iirc repeated excursions off track & Charlie starts to take a look & starts to dish out warnings & again iirc it's a 3 strike rule
What i don't want to see is stupidly draconian enforcement of pretty minor infractions, that will mean drivers becoming far more conservative ...i'd far more prefer that F1 drivers are driving balls out & are allowed a couple of minor indiscretions per race. Otherwise you may just end up with more of a procession than we do now
HustleRussell said:
Why is the grass not grown right up to the edge of the red & white section of kerb? What is the point of the extra 1.5 metres or so of red-painted tarmac? Perhaps on an exit it might be of use as some run off to prevent an accident, but on an apex there's no reason for it there at all.
Edited by oyster on Tuesday 24th October 10:42
Edited by oyster on Tuesday 24th October 10:43
I dint think the issue is if Max was off track or not. He was off track, fact.
Issue is whether all the drivers where punished equally for going off track ? Even if you don’t overtake, you are still gaining a time / speed advantage other wise no one would do it.
I think it’s the inconsistency that is irritating a lot of fans.
Issue is whether all the drivers where punished equally for going off track ? Even if you don’t overtake, you are still gaining a time / speed advantage other wise no one would do it.
I think it’s the inconsistency that is irritating a lot of fans.
Exige77 said:
I dint think the issue is if Max was off track or not. He was off track, fact.
Issue is whether all the drivers where punished equally for going off track ? Even if you don’t overtake, you are still gaining a time / speed advantage other wise no one would do it.
I think it’s the inconsistency that is irritating a lot of fans.
This is exactly it.Issue is whether all the drivers where punished equally for going off track ? Even if you don’t overtake, you are still gaining a time / speed advantage other wise no one would do it.
I think it’s the inconsistency that is irritating a lot of fans.
All sports have a field of play. In football, it's the touch line and the ref would rightly be lambasted if he sometimes allowed play to continue when the ball went over it and not others.
Motor sport is different in that it needs a margin and each instance of transgression is going to have a degree of tolerance between what is acceptable and what isn't. This often comes down to the 'opinion' of a few.
The only way to overcome this variable is to design the circuits in such a way that if a driver ventures too far off, there is a physical penalty to pay there and then, whether it's grass, astroturf, gravel or sausage kerbs. The problem then becomes a self-governing one.
Exige77 said:
I dint think the issue is if Max was off track or not. He was off track, fact.
Issue is whether all the drivers where punished equally for going off track ? Even if you don’t overtake, you are still gaining a time / speed advantage other wise no one would do it.
I think it’s the inconsistency that is irritating a lot of fans.
It was consistent. Everyone who overtook someone off track was penalised.Issue is whether all the drivers where punished equally for going off track ? Even if you don’t overtake, you are still gaining a time / speed advantage other wise no one would do it.
I think it’s the inconsistency that is irritating a lot of fans.
Everyone who had an occasional excursion off track wasn't (but i'm sure the stewards had a good look regardless)
The only s
t job the FIA is doing is not making sure everyone/fans understandStevieBee said:
Exige77 said:
I dint think the issue is if Max was off track or not. He was off track, fact.
Issue is whether all the drivers where punished equally for going off track ? Even if you don’t overtake, you are still gaining a time / speed advantage other wise no one would do it.
I think it’s the inconsistency that is irritating a lot of fans.
This is exactly it.Issue is whether all the drivers where punished equally for going off track ? Even if you don’t overtake, you are still gaining a time / speed advantage other wise no one would do it.
I think it’s the inconsistency that is irritating a lot of fans.
I do agree that it shouldn't be so easy to run off track though. There's a difficult balance to find though between enforcing track limits and maintaining safety.
We’ll never know now but maybe a little more patience would have seen Verstappen past Raikkonen legitimately, so low on juice was the Ferrari.
Easy for me to say with just a few hundred yards left of course.
Raikkonen backed off so much after Verstappen went past that he barely made it inside the 5 seconds added to Verstappen (so speaketh Ted on his Notebook show).
Easy for me to say with just a few hundred yards left of course.
Raikkonen backed off so much after Verstappen went past that he barely made it inside the 5 seconds added to Verstappen (so speaketh Ted on his Notebook show).
VladD said:
I do agree that it shouldn't be so easy to run off track though. There's a difficult balance to find though between enforcing track limits and maintaining safety.
We already have a DRS function, can we not have a DIS system that kicks in for a few seconds should track limits be exceeded? Either on-the-fly or during the next DRS zone following a proven offence. Probably unworkable but I like the idea of the DRS flap flicking up to slow the car and signal the indiscretion.
angrymoby said:
Exige77 said:
I dint think the issue is if Max was off track or not. He was off track, fact.
Issue is whether all the drivers where punished equally for going off track ? Even if you don’t overtake, you are still gaining a time / speed advantage other wise no one would do it.
I think it’s the inconsistency that is irritating a lot of fans.
It was consistent. Everyone who overtook someone off track was penalised.Issue is whether all the drivers where punished equally for going off track ? Even if you don’t overtake, you are still gaining a time / speed advantage other wise no one would do it.
I think it’s the inconsistency that is irritating a lot of fans.
I disagree. Example - sainz was all 4 wheels off the track when he overtook Ocon on lap 49. That move was remarkably similar to Max on Kimi.
Vettel was also all 4 wheels off when overtaking Hamilton at the first corner. He wasn't all 4 wheels off on the inside of the corner - he was all 4 wheels off on the outside of the corner, having overshot. If Vettel had he tried to keep it on the asphalt, he'd have had to have slowed down so much Hamilton would have retaken him, so he also gained an advantage by driving all 4 wheels off the track.
The rules weren't applied consistently.
VladD said:
It's not really. There is a difference between running of track and gaining 0.05 of a second and running off track and passing another competitor. If you run of track and gain 2 seconds but don't pass a competitor, then you should get a penalty too.
I do agree that it shouldn't be so easy to run off track though. There's a difficult balance to find though between enforcing track limits and maintaining safety.
There's also a difference between running off the track ie running wide to the outside, and driving into the infield to cut the corner. Max didn't run off the track, he deliberately drove off.I do agree that it shouldn't be so easy to run off track though. There's a difficult balance to find though between enforcing track limits and maintaining safety.
E34-3.2 said:
Ves should call himself lucky on that one. Ham gave back his place at Spa in 2008 but was still penalised 25sec...not 5.
swisstoni said:
Raikkonen backed off so much after Verstappen went past that he barely made it inside the 5 seconds added to Verstappen (so speaketh Ted on his Notebook show).
The number of seconds is not proportional to the crime, 25 seconds is not necessarily 5x worse than 5 seconds... the stewards select the penalty time in such a way that it reverses the result. If Raikkonen was 8 seconds behind Vestappen at the line, it probably would've been a 10 second penalty. HustleRussell said:
CraigyMc said:
You think it was consistent application of the rules?
I disagree. Example - sainz was all 4 wheels off the track when he overtook Ocon on lap 49. That move was remarkably similar to Max on Kimi.
Did Sainz complete the move and keep the position though? I disagree. Example - sainz was all 4 wheels off the track when he overtook Ocon on lap 49. That move was remarkably similar to Max on Kimi.
CraigyMc said:
You think it was consistent application of the rules?
I disagree. Example - sainz was all 4 wheels off the track when he overtook Ocon on lap 49. That move was remarkably similar to Max on Kimi.
Vettel was also all 4 wheels off when overtaking Hamilton at the first corner. He wasn't all 4 wheels off on the inside of the corner - he was all 4 wheels off on the outside of the corner, having overshot. If Vettel had he tried to keep it on the asphalt, he'd have had to have slowed down so much Hamilton would have retaken him, so he also gained an advantage by driving all 4 wheels off the track.
The rules weren't applied consistently.
as previously mentioned numerous times, Sainz didn't gain a place.I disagree. Example - sainz was all 4 wheels off the track when he overtook Ocon on lap 49. That move was remarkably similar to Max on Kimi.
Vettel was also all 4 wheels off when overtaking Hamilton at the first corner. He wasn't all 4 wheels off on the inside of the corner - he was all 4 wheels off on the outside of the corner, having overshot. If Vettel had he tried to keep it on the asphalt, he'd have had to have slowed down so much Hamilton would have retaken him, so he also gained an advantage by driving all 4 wheels off the track.
The rules weren't applied consistently.
also previously mentioned numerous times, Vettel was already ahead, he ran out wide- rather than cutting a corner & it's also the first corner where about 7 cars also went outside the track limits
angrymoby said:
as previously mentioned numerous times, Sainz didn't gain a place.
also previously mentioned numerous times, Vettel was already ahead, he ran out wide- rather than cutting a corner & it's also the first corner where about 7 cars also went outside the track limits
And as previously mentioned, if 7 cars can go outside of track limits and 1 is penalised, where's the consistency?also previously mentioned numerous times, Vettel was already ahead, he ran out wide- rather than cutting a corner & it's also the first corner where about 7 cars also went outside the track limits
CraigyMc said:
angrymoby said:
as previously mentioned numerous times, Sainz didn't gain a place.
also previously mentioned numerous times, Vettel was already ahead, he ran out wide- rather than cutting a corner & it's also the first corner where about 7 cars also went outside the track limits
And as previously mentioned, if 7 cars can go outside of track limits and 1 is penalised, where's the consistency?also previously mentioned numerous times, Vettel was already ahead, he ran out wide- rather than cutting a corner & it's also the first corner where about 7 cars also went outside the track limits
Andy S15 said:
This wouldn't upset the live fans and wouldn't have caused as much frustration maybe. I just think (in the space of one race meeting) to go from saying in the drivers brief about track limits not being enforced and no one else receiving any reprimand all weekend, to demoting a popular driver from a podium position after a career defining drive is a little rich. I'd have personally liked them to have reviewed it and on balance, both drivers made small reactionary movements which resulted in 4 wheels off - however, Max had still made the opportunity stick and would have still made the pass with 2 wheels off, so position stays.
I hate to say this but the live fans were not upset! If anything there was excitement and tension in the stands whilst finding out what Max’s reaction would be when he saw Kimi and was kicked out of the room of awkwardness!CraigyMc said:
And as previously mentioned, if 7 cars can go outside of track limits and 1 is penalised, where's the consistency?
can you please tell us which one of those 7 got a penalty at the start ...i must've missed itI'm guessing you've moved passed the Sainz/ Ocon incident?
Edited by angrymoby on Tuesday 24th October 13:03
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